Questions for non-believers!!!

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Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:15 pm

This may seem like an odd thing to ask so please don't hate me ( the believers!).

I would like to ask the non believers or the once who think the chances are he's dead, why they think Michael is dead? Why is it that the evidence we have so far and all the things that are just TOO ODD lead you to think he dead rather than alive? And if you think he's dead and know all the odd things, how do you explain them, fitting with your believe.

Also if you are a believer and you know any non-believers and their reasons for thinking he's dead, do tell.

The reason I'm asking this is because lately I've been wondering if maybe the evidence we have can lead to a different reasonable explanation other than "he's alive". I haven't been able to find one yet. And if I believe something 100% I want to make sure it's really the only way to go. I've been focusing too much on proving he's alive with every new thing that maybe I'm not considering every possibility anymore.


Again, please don't hate me or judge for asking this. I just want to consider every option.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by shirley-grace on Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:25 pm

aktually I'm a believer, but watching stuff like this I just found, really drags on my emotions.

Janet Jackson On Her VMA Tribute To Michael Jackson
http://www.mtv.com/videos/news/438444/janet-jackson-reflects-on-her-vma-performance.jhtml#id=1621776
http://www.mtv.com/videos/news/438176/this-was-the-most-fun-ive-ever-had.jhtml#id=1621776
http://www.mtv.com/videos/news/438182/janet-jackson-rehearses-for-her-vma-performance.jhtml#id=1621776

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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Yeah that was kinda sad to watch...Sad
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by spider monkey on Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:11 pm

in my case, i'm in another forum - a serious, hardcore MJ fan forum, which i also love. by the time i log out from there, i'm convinced he's dead - murdered, even. hoax discussion is a no-no there. sometimes, it makes me feel so weak inside that i just have to shut down the computer immediately and occupy my mind with other stuff...

i need to read new things everyday that will keep my hopes up, but i also do use logic and IMO, it's not mere inability to accept his 'death' that's making me hold on. i've told myself that the only thing that would make me stop believing is if Katherine speaks about his death, and asks the believers to put a stop to this. so it's Katherine i'm most scared about because of the special bond she shares with MJ.

it's really hard, i'm not enjoying it at all. sometimes, i ask myself if i'm reading things one way and closing my mind to other interpretations...if there are different versions of a story, of course i will go with that one that favors a hoax...so it's not as if i'm 100% convinced he's alive, but i'm here for the long haul.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Red Velvet on Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:21 pm

I think its a very good question. It will give non-believers or those who become easily persuaded that he's gone, the chance to get it out here so we can pick it apart because non of us know anything and all of us are just hoping (even the non believers or they wouldn't be imo) so if we're going to do this, we should do it with a fine tooth comb.

I don't think any of us want to be digging ourselves in some bottomless pit of "denial" so please ... I hope many will answer the questions.

I'm open minded to the fact that nothing that is going on is making any sense.

All I have seen is evasion, drama, collusion, distraction and some very good and bad acting.

I have made up my mind not so much that he's alive because unless he's sitting here with me I couldn't know that, but that until I see something that makes it seem like he's really gone, I mean something important that 'rings' true, then I can let him 'go'...but until then ... no. He's not dead by a long shot from where I sit.

I hope you who are really unsure why you're here, to really answer the question. It can help us a great deal in picking this apart.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:15 am

Hi guys. I have spoken with Red Velvet about this before, tried to give an explanation, and I will try and do that again here. Warning: this will be looooong

I am a "non-believer", that is true. But, that doesn't mean I'm here to cut you down and try and make you think he is dead. Why do I think he is dead? I'm not really sure how to answer that. I'm not sure I can explain it. But I'll try

Before MJ died (or "died" hehe) I wasn't a hardcore fan. I wasn't much of a fan at all actually, to be honest - I would sing and dance around to his songs on the radio when I heard them, but that was about as far as it went. Don't get me wrong, he always intruiged me, and I would listen to stories about him on the news or read what they were saying in the paper, but never took any real notice of what people were saying. I did loosely follow his trial on the news though back in the day, and thought he was innocent. I am still sure of that today, even more so now I know more about him.

When I first heard he was dead/"dead" I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach. I don't know why - I had no connection or attachment to him, but something inside me snapped and I was completely devastated. I wanted to know more about him, started listening to more of his songs (the ones I hadn't heard of before) and then started kicking myself that it's taken me this long to realise how awesome his music really is, and I've now become a hardcore fan. I LOVE him! Such a genius (as I'm sure you'll agree, hehe). So in my thirst for "all stories MJ" not long after his death, I somehow stumbled across this site (and MJHD). I was totally fascinated at all the "evidence" and theories all you guys are coming up with, and although I don't think he's alive, I do know that there are way too many inconsistencies for it to be a simple case. He didn't just die at home, get rushed to hospital and then taken to the coroner. There are a lot of weird things. So I decided to stick around and become part of it

As for why I think MJ is dead? I'm not really sure. I guess I had no emotional connection/attachment to him before I heard the news, so although I was like "Wth?! No way! He's dead!?" I accepted it after the initial shock subsided. (And boy was it shock - you wake up one morning to hear MICHAEL JACKSON has died??? How random! Even though I wasn't a fan, I appreciated how much of a superstar he was) I'm not insisting he is dead. I'm not like "You guys are all wrong, he is dead". I happen to think he is dead, but I'm not trying to make anyone else join me in my opinion. I respect that I am the "enemy" so to speak (lol) on a death hoax site, not believing the hoax, but there's no way I'm going to try and convince any of you that he is dead. I have my opinion, and if/when I come across something that really, truly, 100% without a doubt changes my mind, then hey - I will join you guys on the "other side", hehe. I also think its a hell of a LOT of trouble to go to, faking your death to get away from the media, etc, when it would be so much easier to do it (getting away I mean) while still alive (eg look at when he lived in Bahrain - heard hardly anything about him for a few years). And faking your death to get out of 50 concerts? I'm sure if all these people are working together to help him fake his death (and think about just how many people would have to be involved!) surely there would have been some doctor to fake that he was too sick to do the concerts or something, you know?

I think that I am able to see things objectively BECAUSE of the fact I wasn't a huge fan before. Although I'd love for him to still be alive, I think because I've already accepted his death and I'm at peace with it (even though it was a hard thought to get used to) it is easier for me to think about him being dead. Whereas the "believers" are so sure he is still alive, when they think about him being dead they hurt so much and cry and feel sick/depressed etc etc and it is too hard for them to face, so it is easier to think he is alive, you know what I mean? It is easier to deal with and face.

I still feel sick when I think about the fact he is actually dead, and I've shed my share of tears over the fact. But by the time I found this site I was already in the acceptance stage, and to think he might still be alive is just a bit of a stretch for me. Don't get me wrong, I can certainly see WHY you guys think this - I have seen all the evidence you've brought forward and it's a bloody good argument. I just think also because I can see things objectively, that surely there's a logical explanation for things. BUT having said all that, I must admit, that even for a "non believer", the amount of discrepancies and inconsistencies amazes me, and that is why I am on this site, to keep up to date with the research you guys are doing, and who knows - maybe there'll be a big breakthrough that just might sway me. Until then, I'm really enjoying the detective work. It's not about proving MJ is still alive for me. (Although if he is, how awesome!) It's more about debunking each individual discrepancy. Sort of like problem solving (which I HATED at school, LOL!) Like I said, it's fascinating, and this site has become so addictive for me, I'm up til 1/2am every night because I can't put the laptop down! Hahaha.

What brought me to this site then? I have to say I honestly can't remember. LOL! Like I said, I was on the internet day and night, reading everything I could about Michael (ok, I am obsessed with him, I will admit it, LOL!), and somewhere along the way, I stumbled into MJHD. I think that came about after seeing those "Michael Jackson's ghost at Neverland" and "Michael Jackson appears on a car bonnet" type stories, and somewhere in all the pages and pages that I read, there must have been a link to a page about the hoax. I remember thinking "oh lord, now they think he's faked his death?! come on" (or should it have been "shamon" hehehe) and rolling my eyes. Then, somehow I clicked onto the MJHD site (curiosity got the better of me, I must admit, and I remember thinking to myself "what on earth could possibly make them think this is a hoax? This I have to see" lol) and started reading, highly interested (albeit sceptical lol) in their reasoning for thinking he was still alive. Rather than the "He just has to be alive, there's no way he's dead, I can feel it" or "He faked his death!!! Me and my friends saw him in Miami 3 days ago" (etc etc) sort of dribble I was expecting, there was actually solid evidence of all these inconsistencies surrounding his death/"death" from the second he stopped breathing/collapsed (which is it? no one knows!) right up to the present day (eg burial). And so the obsession began, LOL! Since stumbling across that site, I have got only a few hours sleep each night because I am on the laptop half the damn night, not being able to go to sleep because it's so enthralling. And that's just reading, not posting anything! After trying in vain to register at MJHD so I could join in the discussions debunking the ambulance saga and the ed hardy story (for some reason, I couldn't get the password confirmation email) I somehow, somewhere found a link to THIS site (don't ask me how, I honestly have no idea, LOL!) and was able to join immediately.


I also plan to stick around, because not only does no one in my "real" life have no idea that people out there think this is a hoax and they have solid evidence that even I can see, no one in my "real" life likes MJ, or has the same respect/admiration/obsession for/with him as I now do, LOL! I love being able to talk to like-minded people who know why I love him, or know what gold pants means, or know how much of an impact MJ has had on my life - you guys really do know, because you feel the same and I love being able to talk without having to explain anything (except why I think he is dead, LOL!)

As Red Velvet brought to my attention, I think the early acceptance thing is the key. I had accepted and come to peace with Michael's death/"death" before the memorial I guess. I know that sounds bad, and it sounds like "how could you get over it so quickly" but remember I had no attachment to him prior to this. And while I had accepted it, it didn't mean I was ok with it. Every day I get up and listen to his music on my ipod and wish June 25th never happened. Maybe it didn't, but it still happened, you know what I mean? Even if he is still alive, June 25 still happened. I feel sick when I think about the fact that he will never create a new piece of music again. That he will never pull something amazing out of his head and turn it into this incredible, indescribable experience for the listener. That no one will ever see a live moonwalk again. That the King Of Pop (that has such magnitude!) is now lying, cold and lifeless in a box forever. Its so sad! I'd love to be able to think it's not true, but I'm just not sure I can.

And for anyone confused on how I had no connection/attachment to Michael prior to his death, yet now speak of the impact he has had on my life, it is since learning about who he was, discovering his music and being taken in by "the force" that I have now become a "hardcore" fan, if you will. Had all this happened and I was a hardcore fan *before* he died, I probably would have been in denial, grasping at straws for any inkling that he was still alive too, etc etc. Not saying you guys are in denial, but I have spoken to a few people who really seem as though that is the case.

Having said all that, I love this site, and the people on it. I'm not going to deny the inconsistencies, and you'd have to be blind not to notice them. I guess I'm just too logical to be able to let myself believe he's still alive. It's too much of a stretch for me. That doesn't mean I am steadfast in my opinion that he is dead and that's that. As I said, if I do come across something that really, truly makes me change my mind, I will join you guys on the "believer" side. And if not, but he *does* "come back to life" (so to speak) later down the track? I will happily be "told so". I think that would be fantastic. At the moment though, I just can't bring myself to think he is alive.


I hope I have explained myself adequately. I'm not sure anyone else will be able to understand me, or my way of thinking, because I can't even put into words all the stuff in my head, LOL! "Why do you think he is dead" is such a simple question, but when I really thought about it, it was so complex! Do you understand where I'm coming from though? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in response, and even more interested to hear from any other "non believers".

ANYONE: Please feel free to PM me with any further enquiries, debates, discussion, or just to chat
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by ~Susie~ on Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:32 am

My mom believes I'm crazy for many reasons and 1 of them is because I believe MJ is alive. So, one day I asked her why she believes he's dead and her answer was "Because I don't think he would leave his kids alone.He loved them so much and this doesn't make sense".And my answer was "Yes, and commiting suicide and leaving them alone for sure makes more sense". She looked at me in a pretty weird way and remained silent (I cannot understand why - haha)
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by CantStopLovingU on Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:42 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:Hi guys. I have spoken with Red Velvet about this before, tried to give an explanation, and I will try and do that again here. Warning: this will be looooong

I am a "non-believer", that is true. But, that doesn't mean I'm here to cut you down and try and make you think he is dead. Why do I think he is dead? I'm not really sure how to answer that. I'm not sure I can explain it. But I'll try

Before MJ died (or "died" hehe) I wasn't a hardcore fan. I wasn't much of a fan at all actually, to be honest - I would sing and dance around to his songs on the radio when I heard them, but that was about as far as it went. Don't get me wrong, he always intruiged me, and I would listen to stories about him on the news or read what they were saying in the paper, but never took any real notice of what people were saying. I did loosely follow his trial on the news though back in the day, and thought he was innocent. I am still sure of that today, even more so now I know more about him.

When I first heard he was dead/"dead" I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach. I don't know why - I had no connection or attachment to him, but something inside me snapped and I was completely devastated. I wanted to know more about him, started listening to more of his songs (the ones I hadn't heard of before) and then started kicking myself that it's taken me this long to realise how awesome his music really is, and I've now become a hardcore fan. I LOVE him! Such a genius (as I'm sure you'll agree, hehe). So in my thirst for "all stories MJ" not long after his death, I somehow stumbled across this site (and MJHD). I was totally fascinated at all the "evidence" and theories all you guys are coming up with, and although I don't think he's alive, I do know that there are way too many inconsistencies for it to be a simple case. He didn't just die at home, get rushed to hospital and then taken to the coroner. There are a lot of weird things. So I decided to stick around and become part of it

As for why I think MJ is dead? I'm not really sure. I guess I had no emotional connection/attachment to him before I heard the news, so although I was like "Wth?! No way! He's dead!?" I accepted it after the initial shock subsided. (And boy was it shock - you wake up one morning to hear MICHAEL JACKSON has died??? How random! Even though I wasn't a fan, I appreciated how much of a superstar he was) I'm not insisting he is dead. I'm not like "You guys are all wrong, he is dead". I happen to think he is dead, but I'm not trying to make anyone else join me in my opinion. I respect that I am the "enemy" so to speak (lol) on a death hoax site, not believing the hoax, but there's no way I'm going to try and convince any of you that he is dead. I have my opinion, and if/when I come across something that really, truly, 100% without a doubt changes my mind, then hey - I will join you guys on the "other side", hehe. I also think its a hell of a LOT of trouble to go to, faking your death to get away from the media, etc, when it would be so much easier to do it (getting away I mean) while still alive (eg look at when he lived in Bahrain - heard hardly anything about him for a few years). And faking your death to get out of 50 concerts? I'm sure if all these people are working together to help him fake his death (and think about just how many people would have to be involved!) surely there would have been some doctor to fake that he was too sick to do the concerts or something, you know?

I think that I am able to see things objectively BECAUSE of the fact I wasn't a huge fan before. Although I'd love for him to still be alive, I think because I've already accepted his death and I'm at peace with it (even though it was a hard thought to get used to) it is easier for me to think about him being dead. Whereas the "believers" are so sure he is still alive, when they think about him being dead they hurt so much and cry and feel sick/depressed etc etc and it is too hard for them to face, so it is easier to think he is alive, you know what I mean? It is easier to deal with and face.

I still feel sick when I think about the fact he is actually dead, and I've shed my share of tears over the fact. But by the time I found this site I was already in the acceptance stage, and to think he might still be alive is just a bit of a stretch for me. Don't get me wrong, I can certainly see WHY you guys think this - I have seen all the evidence you've brought forward and it's a bloody good argument. I just think also because I can see things objectively, that surely there's a logical explanation for things. BUT having said all that, I must admit, that even for a "non believer", the amount of discrepancies and inconsistencies amazes me, and that is why I am on this site, to keep up to date with the research you guys are doing, and who knows - maybe there'll be a big breakthrough that just might sway me. Until then, I'm really enjoying the detective work. It's not about proving MJ is still alive for me. (Although if he is, how awesome!) It's more about debunking each individual discrepancy. Sort of like problem solving (which I HATED at school, LOL!) Like I said, it's fascinating, and this site has become so addictive for me, I'm up til 1/2am every night because I can't put the laptop down! Hahaha.

What brought me to this site then? I have to say I honestly can't remember. LOL! Like I said, I was on the internet day and night, reading everything I could about Michael (ok, I am obsessed with him, I will admit it, LOL!), and somewhere along the way, I stumbled into MJHD. I think that came about after seeing those "Michael Jackson's ghost at Neverland" and "Michael Jackson appears on a car bonnet" type stories, and somewhere in all the pages and pages that I read, there must have been a link to a page about the hoax. I remember thinking "oh lord, now they think he's faked his death?! come on" (or should it have been "shamon" hehehe) and rolling my eyes. Then, somehow I clicked onto the MJHD site (curiosity got the better of me, I must admit, and I remember thinking to myself "what on earth could possibly make them think this is a hoax? This I have to see" lol) and started reading, highly interested (albeit sceptical lol) in their reasoning for thinking he was still alive. Rather than the "He just has to be alive, there's no way he's dead, I can feel it" or "He faked his death!!! Me and my friends saw him in Miami 3 days ago" (etc etc) sort of dribble I was expecting, there was actually solid evidence of all these inconsistencies surrounding his death/"death" from the second he stopped breathing/collapsed (which is it? no one knows!) right up to the present day (eg burial). And so the obsession began, LOL! Since stumbling across that site, I have got only a few hours sleep each night because I am on the laptop half the damn night, not being able to go to sleep because it's so enthralling. And that's just reading, not posting anything! After trying in vain to register at MJHD so I could join in the discussions debunking the ambulance saga and the ed hardy story (for some reason, I couldn't get the password confirmation email) I somehow, somewhere found a link to THIS site (don't ask me how, I honestly have no idea, LOL!) and was able to join immediately.


I also plan to stick around, because not only does no one in my "real" life have no idea that people out there think this is a hoax and they have solid evidence that even I can see, no one in my "real" life likes MJ, or has the same respect/admiration/obsession for/with him as I now do, LOL! I love being able to talk to like-minded people who know why I love him, or know what gold pants means, or know how much of an impact MJ has had on my life - you guys really do know, because you feel the same and I love being able to talk without having to explain anything (except why I think he is dead, LOL!)

As Red Velvet brought to my attention, I think the early acceptance thing is the key. I had accepted and come to peace with Michael's death/"death" before the memorial I guess. I know that sounds bad, and it sounds like "how could you get over it so quickly" but remember I had no attachment to him prior to this. And while I had accepted it, it didn't mean I was ok with it. Every day I get up and listen to his music on my ipod and wish June 25th never happened. Maybe it didn't, but it still happened, you know what I mean? Even if he is still alive, June 25 still happened. I feel sick when I think about the fact that he will never create a new piece of music again. That he will never pull something amazing out of his head and turn it into this incredible, indescribable experience for the listener. That no one will ever see a live moonwalk again. That the King Of Pop (that has such magnitude!) is now lying, cold and lifeless in a box forever. Its so sad! I'd love to be able to think it's not true, but I'm just not sure I can.

And for anyone confused on how I had no connection/attachment to Michael prior to his death, yet now speak of the impact he has had on my life, it is since learning about who he was, discovering his music and being taken in by "the force" that I have now become a "hardcore" fan, if you will. Had all this happened and I was a hardcore fan *before* he died, I probably would have been in denial, grasping at straws for any inkling that he was still alive too, etc etc. Not saying you guys are in denial, but I have spoken to a few people who really seem as though that is the case.

Having said all that, I love this site, and the people on it. I'm not going to deny the inconsistencies, and you'd have to be blind not to notice them. I guess I'm just too logical to be able to let myself believe he's still alive. It's too much of a stretch for me. That doesn't mean I am steadfast in my opinion that he is dead and that's that. As I said, if I do come across something that really, truly makes me change my mind, I will join you guys on the "believer" side. And if not, but he *does* "come back to life" (so to speak) later down the track? I will happily be "told so". I think that would be fantastic. At the moment though, I just can't bring myself to think he is alive.


I hope I have explained myself adequately. I'm not sure anyone else will be able to understand me, or my way of thinking, because I can't even put into words all the stuff in my head, LOL! "Why do you think he is dead" is such a simple question, but when I really thought about it, it was so complex! Do you understand where I'm coming from though? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in response, and even more interested to hear from any other "non believers".

ANYONE: Please feel free to PM me with any further enquiries, debates, discussion, or just to chat

Hi Jess,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. I can certainly understand where you are coming from, my sister is so much like you! I was the MJ fan all along, and although she was IN LOVE with Michael during his Thriller years, she eventually drifted away, while I have been steadfast in my "relationship" with him all these years.

Now she is all about Michael again after catching up on so many lost years, but she believes he is gone. I dont argue with my family and friends anymore, I basically left off with them about 2 months ago by saying "If Michael comes back, just remember I told you he never passed" and we left it at that.

I wanted to reply to something you said ... you used the word LOGICAL. I am an analyst in my REAL life
so it is my job to question everything. Being so analytical and logical is the reason why I cannot accept the fact that he is gone. If I look at all the "FACTS" in this case logically they do not add up. That is why I feel the way I do. Facts should equal. 2+2 should equal 4, 5-1 should equal 4, and so on. This whole case does not add up. Talk about plot holes! If I took the time to list all of the inconsistencies in this entire situation I would be here all day.

Someday I hope we will all be united in the truth.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by icy55 on Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:06 am

I was a non-believer until I came into this forum, because I JUST COULDNT BELIEVE THAT MICHAEL IS GONE, FOREVER! PS: It's going to be longggg...

Why I was a non-believer at first was because we were made to believe he is truly dead right from the start. There were NO NEWS about chances of him disappearing instead of dead, NO QUESTIONS were asked when his death was broadcast worldwide.

Everything in the media pointed to only one single direction, which is that Michael is no longer with us. Then came Jermaine on MJ's death, then his memorial which really broke my heart. Everything was so large scale, fit for a king, everything seemed like a final goodbye. I didnt ask any questions, at all. More over, Paris was a heart-breaker. I couldnt take it...

Most of the times, when I read about the death hoax I was thinking to myself, this cant be true, never will be. But then I started looking for answers for all the questions. It seemed really conspicuous, but maybe we are just reading too much into it.

At times, I really wonder, Michael is actually a really simple minded guy, would he go through all this trouble? I really wonder, okay great, now I am starting to think that him being alive is all rubbish again. ARGH! This is killing me.

Sorry guys if I had actually invaded your fantasy world. Because my fantasy world had just been shattered and I am picking up the pieces to fix a beautiful picture, all over again,
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:37 am

Thank you guys so much for taking the time to answer to my post. I apreciate everything you wrote but I have the feeling I wasn't clear enough about what I wanted to come out of this. So I'm gonna try to explain.
(This might be long so bare with me )

I've been a fan of MJ since the age of 7 (in 25 now). I admit that sometime after "Blood on the dance floor" I kinda drifted away because he wasn't in the public eye as much as before. But in my heart I never stop caring or admiring him. I've never been the kinda of a "desperate" fan (sleeping outside hotels screaming his name kind; not that there's anything wrong with that; i'm just not like that). I love him for his music and his soul and I feel a spiritual bond with him (as I'm sure many do).
Now, the day he "died" I felt crushed; I could believe it and I kept hoping it was all a hoax (hehe). I became obsesed with him (which I never was before I just loved him before), watching all the interview, videos, etc. Something inside me told me it couldn't be true. My insitinct I guess. (btw, did I tell you that my instincts never failed me ?! )I tried to pull myself out of it and just accept it and get on with my life; people die everyday; I've lost people I love before and I was never like this. As a mtter of fact I have such a hard time understanding death that I usually don't want anything more to do with the subject after someone died (crazy, I know, but that's my way of dealing with it; don't shoot me Razz ). I don't want to talk about the person, think about him/her..I just want to forget.Which of course wasn't all the case with Mike. I couldn't unerstand that and I tried very hard to accept it and think my "obsesion" with him just comes out of love. I saw a lot of weird things on the news about his death (the ambulance backing us too slow when he was supposedly in there fighting for his life; the picture in the ambluance; family going in and out of the house clearing his belongings, etc), but I tried not too think too much of it. Slowly I made my peace with it. By the time the memorial started I had already accepted it.
It was only after the memorial that I started to investigate because I couldn't shake of the feeling that there was something wrong with the whole story. And the memorial didn't help calm me down. At first I thought he was murdered. But inconstincies in the story didn't fit with that theory.
Anyway, when I can accross this site I wasn't sure of anything; I just needed closure. And I was amazed by how many people believe he's alive and even more amazed that, like jess.loves.mj said, it wasn't just "I feel it in my heart", "I can't let him go", but I was actuall evidence and logical, rational debate on the matter.
As I said before I like to let go fast when someone dies and not think about it everyday so I tried really hard to make up my mind one way or the other fast. The thing that convinced me that he's alive was the ambulance video debate. That did it for me. There was no way that fit in with the "murder" scenario.
I'm gonna try to rap it up now so I don't bore you anymore with my "history":
The way I see it there are only 3 ways to go with this case:
1) acciental death by Dr. Murray ( we already know by now that's not true and why not so I won't go into it )
2) MURDER ( this one was tricky for me for a while like I mentioned, but after seeing the ambulance videos and all the inconsisancies I think there is no way that someone who wanted such a famous person like MJ dead would do such a sloopy job at it; those people are usually very clean and don't leave much room for interpretation; they don't leave anything behind; they def. don't make a few videos of the amulance picking him up and then do such a poor job at editing them; from what I know they rap the case up fast and close it and thake it out of the news . Not to mention that if LaToya really thought he was murdered like she said, the moment she hear about his passing, she wouldn't have gone to him house with the hole family to risk distrying the evidence that could put the crimials behind bars)
3) He's alive and hoxed his death; why? I don't know exactly; How? not sure on that either but It's the only thing that these inconsitancies lead me to.
And like Susie said, he wouldn't have put his life at such risk knowing he could leave him 3 kids (that mean the world to him) orphans.

To conclude this, I do have rational reasons to believe he's alive. I just wanted to know what the rational reasons of the non-believers are. Not to try to convince them that they are wrong. Not to pick it apart. I just think it's heathly to look at every reasonable explanation. We have ours. If they/ you (the n.b) have one too please tell. This way we can analise both and see which one makes more sense.
I hope noone will hate me for saying this but I want to be 100% sure one way of the other and if the n.b. have a better explanation of things that we do, I'll go with it and put it to rest. I have already made my peace with it.
So please, do tell. Convince me/us if you can. And I mean that!
I have talked to many n.b. and try to find out why they think he's dead and the best they came up with was " It would just be too crazy for him to fake his death". So, if you have anything rational on it, say it. We're not going on just out instinct here or just our heart, but on facts.

I know I wrote a lot, so please forgive me if I bored you. I just needed to get it out.

Thanks for reading!
Peace!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:01 am

Hi Jess, This is very well thought out and well written and you have explained your thoughts very well. I am a "believer" but I must admit that there are days when I feel as if I am going completely bonkers and that I am clutching at straws and think that maybe an inability to accept his death that makes me WANT to believe he is alive and on those days I am a "non believer" but I am thankful to say these days are not often. Also (no offence meant to anyone as is good you are weighing up every possibility) but some of the suggestions and theories are just too far fetched and preposterous that I think I maybe am being OTT thinking MJ is alive and then someone will come up with a theory that is totally feasible and likely that my belief is strengthened again. I think while MJs death (or non death) is still quite fresh in our minds and hearts many of us will feel moments and days of doubt as I do and I sincerely hope that better answers come our way but in the meantime it is good that we have totally unbiased opinions like those of Jess who in fact is a "non believer" but is willing to listen to our theories and has an open mind on this whole matter. I respect your belief as you respect ours. Good on you!!!!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by icy55 on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:26 am

The main thing is that I want a closure on all of this... Michael on earth or in heaven will want to see a finishing line too! Are you guys with me on this? =)
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:27 am

icy55 wrote:The main thing is that I want a closure on all of this... Michael on earth or in heaven will want to see a finishing line too! Are you guys with me on this? =)

100% with you
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:32 am

Me too-its driving me mad!!!! Is like a crime novel with the last few pages gone.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:39 am

CantStopLovingU wrote:Hi Jess,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. I can certainly understand where you are coming from, my sister is so much like you! I was the MJ fan all along, and although she was IN LOVE with Michael during his Thriller years, she eventually drifted away, while I have been steadfast in my "relationship" with him all these years.

Now she is all about Michael again after catching up on so many lost years, but she believes he is gone. I dont argue with my family and friends anymore, I basically left off with them about 2 months ago by saying "If Michael comes back, just remember I told you he never passed" and we left it at that.

I wanted to reply to something you said ... you used the word LOGICAL. I am an analyst in my REAL life
so it is my job to question everything. Being so analytical and logical is the reason why I cannot accept the fact that he is gone. If I look at all the "FACTS" in this case logically they do not add up. That is why I feel the way I do. Facts should equal. 2+2 should equal 4, 5-1 should equal 4, and so on. This whole case does not add up. Talk about plot holes! If I took the time to list all of the inconsistencies in this entire situation I would be here all day.

Someday I hope we will all be united in the truth.

Hi CantStopLovingU! I hope we will all be united in the truth as well. But in the meantime, we will all band together while searching for the truth

I agree with you about the facts not adding up logically. Eg did MJ collapse or was he found? And if he did collapse, was it in his room? Dr Murray's room? Or the loungeroom? There have been so many conflicting reports.

When I talk about being logical, I mean I look for a logical explanation for things. Eg Cassandra answering questions, and giving information 'from Michael'. The logical explanation is, it is all BS because if he has faked his death, as if he would be like "tell my fans I'm ok". The idea of hoaxing a death is to make people believe you're dead! (Sorry but I found that whole episode quite amusing as soon as I opened that thread )

Granted, I can't find a logical explanation for everything. That is why I stick around, to see what else is uncovered

Truth_or_Dare wrote:To conclude this, I do have rational reasons to believe he's alive. I just wanted to know what the rational reasons of the non-believers are. Not to try to convince them that they are wrong. Not to pick it apart. I just think it's heathly to look at every reasonable explanation. We have ours. If they/ you (the n.b) have one too please tell. This way we can analise both and see which one makes more sense.

Oh sorry Truth, I didn't realise you wanted our facts and reasoning for why he was dead - I thought you just wanted to know why we thought he was dead. I have a few reasons, I will put some together at the end of this post And don't worry, your "history" wasn't boring I quite enjoyed reading it.

Harleyblonde wrote:Hi Jess, This is very well thought out and well written and you have explained your thoughts very well. I am a "believer" but I must admit that there are days when I feel as if I am going completely bonkers and that I am clutching at straws and think that maybe an inability to accept his death that makes me WANT to believe he is alive and on those days I am a "non believer" but I am thankful to say these days are not often. Also (no offence meant to anyone as is good you are weighing up every possibility) but some of the suggestions and theories are just too far fetched and preposterous that I think I maybe am being OTT thinking MJ is alive and then someone will come up with a theory that is totally feasible and likely that my belief is strengthened again. I think while MJs death (or non death) is still quite fresh in our minds and hearts many of us will feel moments and days of doubt as I do and I sincerely hope that better answers come our way but in the meantime it is good that we have totally unbiased opinions like those of Jess who in fact is a "non believer" but is willing to listen to our theories and has an open mind on this whole matter. I respect your belief as you respect ours. Good on you!!!!

Hi Harleyblonde! Thankyou for your kind words. I have to agree with you on some of the theories being a little too far fetched - I'm glad it's not just me that thinks that, I thought it must have been because I'm a "non believer", but it's good to see someone else thinks the same hehehe. I will also agree with you though, that there are the odd theories that are feasible too. It is just such a fascinating concept for me. I am fully supportive of you "believers" and I will quite happily tell you to "Keep the faith", which may sound hypocritical as I don't "have the faith" (LOL) but you are all here for a single purpose, and I'm in no way trying to ridicule or destroy your beliefs. If you believe, I hope you continue to do so, and don't get disheartened when you have a bad day. Keep on keeping on. I may not believe but I believe in you guys and you are doing a great job uncovering all these "plot holes" as CantStopLovingU called them (great name for them btw!)


Some reasons I don't think he would hoax his death:

It is a HUGE operation. I mean MASSIVE. Think of the time, money, effort etc that would have had to have gone into the planning. Massive, massive operation.

How does he make sure the people involved don't spill the beans? Look at all the creeps coming out of the woodwork now he's died, claiming this and that. He couldn't trust many people while alive, and consider the number of people who would have to be involved in this. It's a LOT.

The number of people involved. Sure, first off you (when I say "you" I am referring to the believers btw) thought it was a few family and friends that would be involved, but then that expanded to the LAPD, the DEA, the UCLA staff, the coroner and staff, the people flying the helicopter, the Forest Lawn staff - just to name a few. The list keeps getting longer and longer.

What exactly is being done to ensure these people stay quiet? Are they getting paid? How much each? Could you imagine how much it would cost to pay each person individually? And then could you imagine how tempting it would be if you were one of the ones involved? When you see on the news and the internet every day "Michael Jackson dead" - you would be sitting on your hands, busting to scream to the world, "No he's not!!". How would they choose who they could trust?

If it was to get out of the 50 concerts, why didn't he just pull out and still do the 10 he originally agreed to? He didn't sign the contract for 50 did he - it was his manager that did? Technically he could have gotten away with that, if he didn't sign for 50.

One word. Legalities. I don't even want to think about the legalities involved. LOL.

There are so many more but my wrists are cramping up from typing, I will have to add more later
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:08 am

Thank you jess.loves.mj! I'm looking forward to reading more! If you can, please address the ambulance videos.

Btw the videos explaining the ambulance videos, "Michael Jackson - death of a moonwalker" have been removed by the user...strange ...
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:40 am

Yes Jess, you are right in saying it is a massive operation and it is this that makes me have my doubts and wonder if he is in fact dead but the the staunch believers think it was someone else and not MJ who actually dead and maybe this is possible and the ambulance, LAPD, forest lawn staff etc would not have any reason to think it was NOT Michael, surely only the ones actually dealing with the autopsy will be involved, also there is the theory of witness protection-which I think may seem ridiculous but he did publicly slag off Tommy Mottola (calling him a devil) but all this is hearsay and we just do not know. He certainly upset people though!
The thing that swayed me one way is the financial aspect (Elvis has made much more money than ever since his death ) and the fact that MJ was a broken man after the court case and even if a lot knew he was innocent there are many more who thought otherwise and he was constantly getting ridiculed for many years and I think that he had been planning this for a long time-forgive me if no-one shares my theories but I think if one of his substitutes or doubles was terminally ill it would have given them ample time to plan/do the necessary with plastic surgery to make him look as near to MJ as you can. Therefore none of the hospital/ambulance staff etc would be in the least suspicious-this would explain the perfect ear in the ambulance photo etc, plus I think the "ambulance" photo is one that is part of the hoax that they put out as part of the hoax as my Uncle was a professional photographer at a local paper and he says there would be many photo's-not just one as they can do many frames per second with the professional cameras that they use.
I think all the number theories, the MJ giving out clues to his fans and the fact that is will do a great comeback is definitely not feasible (no offence to the believers) and I think the Cassandra woman we should totally disregard and I think the fact that people are actually asking her questions is encouraging her and she is just playing with peoples feelings and makes me sad to think there are such sick warped people in our society.
As for the 50 concerts-forgive me if I am wrong but I have read in a few places that as he was in debt to AEG and when he signed the contract it was worded as such that they could increase the number from 10, as I said I do not know if this is fact and maybe his lawyer didn't check closely enough so maybe this is the case but maybe we should try to look more closley into details like this.
I really respect your views and arguements and you have some very valid points, I enjoyed reading it but as a believer am sorry but every paragraph I thought "YES BUT......" anyway this is only my opinion but it just makes me think that we have HOPE as for an "unbeliever" to even consider these points makes me think that maybe just maybe a very little bit of you may be a "believer" Forgive me if you are 100% sure but keep watching and posting. I would really love to hear your opinion to what I have said. Take care.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:45 am

Ok, last post for tonight and then I am off to bed. It is past midnight and I have to get up early for work in the morning. (See what this site does to me?! I told you I am addicted!!! LOL)

Truth_or_Dare wrote:Thank you jess.loves.mj! I'm looking forward to reading more! If you can, please address the ambulance videos.

Btw the videos explaining the ambulance videos, "Michael Jackson - death of a moonwalker" have been removed by the user...strange ...

Have they really?

Yes the ambulance videos. That was one that stumped me for a while, I must admit. But here are my opinions on the whole ambulance saga, not just the video.

The video I am talking about is the one where there are supposedly 2 ambulances, one inside the gate after the 'first' one pulls out. I think however, the beginning of the video is at the end, and they have edited it in a stupid way. People say when the camera guy is running towards his car, the starline bus isn't there, but if you look closely it is, and I don't think it would have taken half an hour for the ambulance to back out - although it was going hella slow! - so it wasn't a second bus arriving (supposedly they leave every half hour). The guy putting the cones out is off too, due to the editing, and in the starline footage, as they drive past the gates, there is no second ambulance in there. That's why I think they have edited it wrongly. (Why they have done this? Don't know. That's another story I guess) And it just makes no sense to film it a few different times. With the starline buses always driving past, and just general cars in the street (not to mention neighbours) surely someone would have been like "Why did you film the ambulance backing out of the driveway 3 times??" you know? Also would mean all those paparrazi were in on it. You think MJ would put such an amount of complete and total trust into a paparrazi??? Even if he did know the guy - he only knew him because he stalked him, followed him everywhere invading his privacy. (Love the song Privacy btw hehe)

Why the ambulance backed out sirenless, slower than a herd of tortoises stampeding through peanut butter? I have no idea. Obviously they were trying to get out of the gates, but they should have floored it as soon as they were clear, when they were backing out onto the street at least, regardless if there were paparrazi in the way. It would have been their own stupid fault if they got run over IMO. This could be a clear indication that he was already dead (sorry guys). Why else would they not go as fast as they can? It's an emergency - any other time the siren is on and they speed away, so why not with the world's most famous entertainer lying in the back there? If anything, they should have been going TWICE as fast - heck, it was MICHAEL JACKSON! Wth?? That's one conflicting report I can't understand. He was dead when paramedics got there, but he also died at UCLA? Which is the truth? I am not sure, but from the ambulance I think it might have been the first one, otherwise they should be going faster. BUT then, why wasn't the coroner or whoever it is that is called to take away a dead body? Gahhhh! All these inconsistencies are sooo confusing even to a non believer!

As for the paramedic supposedly doing CPR right up near MJ's neck. You can't see his other hand, and if he was doing CPR, it should have been on top of the hand we can see. I don't think he was performing compressions at that second the picture was taken. I think he was just holding him there, or doing something else with his other hand, but he wasn't doing compressions.

The ambulance photo itself? I am not quite sure on this one. It sure does look like MJ, and when I saw it for the first time, I felt incredibly sad (this was before I found this site) and didn't question it. I still think it is him, but I am enthralled with your findings on it being a double, or this is wrong with it, or that doesn't fit, etc. How could the paramedics not recognise this was MJ?? Were they blind??

Paramedics and doctors at UCLA performing compressions on a corpse that had supposedly been dead a couple of hours before the ambulance got there? I think they were just desperate. People were screaing "You've got to save him!" and I know if I was a doctor there and Michael Jackson came in not breathing, I would perfom CPR until I couldn't do it anymore, or until someone pulled me away from him LOL. Anything to try and save him, even if it was futile.

Why it took Murray so long to call 911? No idea. Best explanation? He is a douche. Generally 911 is the FIRST thing u do, the second you discover someone isn't breathing. You don't wait 90 mins or whatever it was. Maybe he was trying to do CPR [on the bed?????] so he would revive him himself and not have to call 911 so that his illegal drug administering wasn't found out about. Trying to save his own skin. I don't know.

I aploogise if I sound like I am getting worked up with my italics and bold, LOL! I'm not trying to convince anyone I am right, or that these are the only reasons you should believe, I'm just trying to make sure I get my point across. I'm trying to write so it will be interpreted in the same "voice"/way I am writing it.

Oh man I could go on about this allllllll night, but my hands are totally cramping up now, and it's almost 1am. I really have to get to bed, but I will be back on as soon as I get home from work tomorrow! (I can't access the internet at work Probably a good thing though, LOL)


*EDIT* Harleyblonde you posted as I was writing my post, hehe. I will read your post and reply to it tomorrow - so sorry! I am dying to read it and reply now, but really must go to bed! Goodnight all! xx


Last edited by jess.loves.mj on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:45 am

Harleyblonde wrote:Yes Jess, you are right in saying it is a massive operation and it is this that makes me have my doubts and wonder if he is in fact dead but the the staunch believers think it was someone else and not MJ who actually dead and maybe this is possible and the ambulance, LAPD, forest lawn staff etc would not have any reason to think it was NOT Michael, surely only the ones actually dealing with the autopsy will be involved, also there is the theory of witness protection-which I think may seem ridiculous but he did publicly slag off Tommy Mottola (calling him a devil) but all this is hearsay and we just do not know. He certainly upset people though!
The thing that swayed me one way is the financial aspect (Elvis has made much more money than ever since his death ) and the fact that MJ was a broken man after the court case and even if a lot knew he was innocent there are many more who thought otherwise and he was constantly getting ridiculed for many years and I think that he had been planning this for a long time-forgive me if no-one shares my theories but I think if one of his substitutes or doubles was terminally ill it would have given them ample time to plan/do the necessary with plastic surgery to make him look as near to MJ as you can. Therefore none of the hospital/ambulance staff etc would be in the least suspicious-this would explain the perfect ear in the ambulance photo etc, plus I think the "ambulance" photo is one that is part of the hoax that they put out as part of the hoax as my Uncle was a professional photographer at a local paper and he says there would be many photo's-not just one as they can do many frames per second with the professional cameras that they use.
I think all the number theories, the MJ giving out clues to his fans and the fact that is will do a great comeback is definitely not feasible (no offence to the believers) and I think the Cassandra woman we should totally disregard and I think the fact that people are actually asking her questions is encouraging her and she is just playing with peoples feelings and makes me sad to think there are such sick warped people in our society.
As for the 50 concerts-forgive me if I am wrong but I have read in a few places that as he was in debt to AEG and when he signed the contract it was worded as such that they could increase the number from 10, as I said I do not know if this is fact and maybe his lawyer didn't check closely enough so maybe this is the case but maybe we should try to look more closley into details like this.
I really respect your views and arguements and you have some very valid points, I enjoyed reading it but as a believer am sorry but every paragraph I thought "YES BUT......" anyway this is only my opinion but it just makes me think that we have HOPE as for an "unbeliever" to even consider these points makes me think that maybe just maybe a very little bit of you may be a "believer" Forgive me if you are 100% sure but keep watching and posting. I would really love to hear your opinion to what I have said. Take care.

Can you ask your uncle is they could have taken that ambulance pic so clear with the tined glass?
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:02 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:Ok, last post for tonight and then I am off to bed. It is past midnight and I have to get up early for work in the morning. (See what this site does to me?! I told you I am addicted!!! LOL)

Truth_or_Dare wrote:Thank you jess.loves.mj! I'm looking forward to reading more! If you can, please address the ambulance videos.

Btw the videos explaining the ambulance videos, "Michael Jackson - death of a moonwalker" have been removed by the user...strange ...

Have they really?

Yes the ambulance videos. That was one that stumped me for a while, I must admit. But here are my opinions on the whole ambulance saga, not just the video.

The video I am talking about is the one where there are supposedly 2 ambulances, one inside the gate after the 'first' one pulls out. I think however, the beginning of the video is at the end, and they have edited it in a stupid way. People say when the camera guy is running towards his car, the starline bus isn't there, but if you look closely it is, and I don't think it would have taken half an hour for the ambulance to back out - although it was going hella slow! - so it wasn't a second bus arriving (supposedly they leave every half hour). The guy putting the cones out is off too, due to the editing, and in the starline footage, as they drive past the gates, there is no second ambulance in there. That's why I think they have edited it wrongly. (Why they have done this? Don't know. That's another story I guess) And it just makes no sense to film it a few different times. With the starline buses always driving past, and just general cars in the street (not to mention neighbours) surely someone would have been like "Why did you film the ambulance backing out of the driveway 3 times??" you know? Also would mean all those paparrazi were in on it. You think MJ would put such an amount of complete and total trust into a paparrazi??? Even if he did know the guy - he only knew him because he stalked him, followed him everywhere invading his privacy. (Love the song Privacy btw hehe)

Why the ambulance backed out sirenless, slower than a herd of tortoises stampeding through peanut butter? I have no idea. Obviously they were trying to get out of the gates, but they should have floored it as soon as they were clear, when they were backing out onto the street at least, regardless if there were paparrazi in the way. It would have been their own stupid fault if they got run over IMO. This could be a clear indication that he was already dead (sorry guys). Why else would they not go as fast as they can? It's an emergency - any other time the siren is on and they speed away, so why not with the world's most famous entertainer lying in the back there? If anything, they should have been going TWICE as fast - heck, it was MICHAEL JACKSON! Wth?? That's one conflicting report I can't understand. He was dead when paramedics got there, but he also died at UCLA? Which is the truth? I am not sure, but from the ambulance I think it might have been the first one, otherwise they should be going faster. BUT then, why wasn't the coroner or whoever it is that is called to take away a dead body? Gahhhh! All these inconsistencies are sooo confusing even to a non believer!

As for the paramedic supposedly doing CPR right up near MJ's neck. You can't see his other hand, and if he was doing CPR, it should have been on top of the hand we can see. I don't think he was performing compressions at that second the picture was taken. I think he was just holding him there, or doing something else with his other hand, but he wasn't doing compressions.

The ambulance photo itself? I am not quite sure on this one. It sure does look like MJ, and when I saw it for the first time, I felt incredibly sad (this was before I found this site) and didn't question it. I still think it is him, but I am enthralled with your findings on it being a double, or this is wrong with it, or that doesn't fit, etc. How could the paramedics not recognise this was MJ?? Were they blind??

Paramedics and doctors at UCLA performing compressions on a corpse that had supposedly been dead a couple of hours before the ambulance got there? I think they were just desperate. People were screaing "You've got to save him!" and I know if I was a doctor there and Michael Jackson came in not breathing, I would perfom CPR until I couldn't do it anymore, or until someone pulled me away from him LOL. Anything to try and save him, even if it was futile.

Why it took Murray so long to call 911? No idea. Best explanation? He is a douche. Generally 911 is the FIRST thing u do, the second you discover someone isn't breathing. You don't wait 90 mins or whatever it was. Maybe he was trying to do CPR [on the bed?????] so he would revive him himself and not have to call 911 so that his illegal drug administering wasn't found out about. Trying to save his own skin. I don't know.

I aploogise if I sound like I am getting worked up with my italics and bold, LOL! I'm not trying to convince anyone I am right, or that these are the only reasons you should believe, I'm just trying to make sure I get my point across. I'm trying to write so it will be interpreted in the same "voice"/way I am writing it.

Oh man I could go on about this allllllll night, but my hands are totally cramping up now, and it's almost 1am. I really have to get to bed, but I will be back on as soon as I get home from work tomorrow! (I can't access the internet at work Probably a good thing though, LOL)


*EDIT* Harleyblonde you posted as I was writing my post, hehe. I will read your post and reply to it tomorrow - so sorry! I am dying to read it and reply now, but really must go to bed! Goodnight all! xx

Thanks for giving more of your reasons.
About the ambulance videos I'm talking about the differences between the official one posted by hollywood tv and the one made by the person in the start line bus. Even if there were 2 ambulances it still doesn't make sense. And it doesn;t add up. Not to me anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_VWCpIgrJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU

And btw, the paramedics did say they didn;t recognise him for about 10 minutes. They said he lookes like a very old and frail man.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:06 am

Hi Truth_or Dare, sorry I should have said before. My Uncle said no is not possible the ambulance photo was taken through tinted glass. He is getting on in years but although he has been retired for a while now he is still very much into photography and keeps up to date with the latest cameras/gadgets etc. he has a digital camera but still loves his good old SLR. He is a "non believer" and laughed when I told him MJ wasn't dead UNTIL I showed him the ambulance photo and explained the circumstances etc. He said they are definately fooling us with the ambulance photograph and there must be a reason for this. He said why did they have to release this photograph anyway and we should ask ourselves why. I think we are on a right track eh??
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:12 am

Harleyblonde wrote:Hi Truth_or Dare, sorry I should have said before. My Uncle said no is not possible the ambulance photo was taken through tinted glass. He is getting on in years but although he has been retired for a while now he is still very much into photography and keeps up to date with the latest cameras/gadgets etc. he has a digital camera but still loves his good old SLR. He is a "non believer" and laughed when I told him MJ wasn't dead UNTIL I showed him the ambulance photo and explained the circumstances etc. He said they are definately fooling us with the ambulance photograph and there must be a reason for this. He said why did they have to release this photograph anyway and we should ask ourselves why. I think we are on a right track eh??

Yep, I think so too! Thanks so much for sharing!
And I think the reason they showed us this was to convince people he's really dead..So there would be no questions later. Not people liken us, but the general public.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:19 am

Yes I agree 100%. I think is was to convince the public.They knew that there was no way they could show an open coffin so this is the next best thing. My Uncle said this is not right and he said there would have been several photographs. I will ask him to study it more closely next time I see him. Will keep you all informed of any discoveries.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:24 am

Harleyblonde wrote:Yes I agree 100%. I think is was to convince the public.They knew that there was no way they could show an open coffin so this is the next best thing. My Uncle said this is not right and he said there would have been several photographs. I will ask him to study it more closely next time I see him. Will keep you all informed of any discoveries.

Thank you!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:34 am

You are very welcome and I love reading all the theories etc but some we should accept with a very open mind. I think we need to concentrate on ACTUAL proof such as photographs-ambulance, 02 Michael, rehearsal etc because if they are proved to be fake/doubles etc then there is definitely something very suspicious going on. Think we guessed that already but would be nice and very rewarding to have actual 100% proof.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:48 am

Harleyblonde wrote:You are very welcome and I love reading all the theories etc but some we should accept with a very open mind. I think we need to concentrate on ACTUAL proof such as photographs-ambulance, 02 Michael, rehearsal etc because if they are proved to be fake/doubles etc then there is definitely something very suspicious going on. Think we guessed that already but would be nice and very rewarding to have actual 100% proof.

You're absolutlly right! That's what I'm trying to focus on. And that's what this thread was about. Actual evidence. Not just speculation.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:26 am

Harleyblonde wrote:Yes Jess, you are right in saying it is a massive operation and it is this that makes me have my doubts and wonder if he is in fact dead but the the staunch believers think it was someone else and not MJ who actually dead and maybe this is possible and the ambulance, LAPD, forest lawn staff etc would not have any reason to think it was NOT Michael, surely only the ones actually dealing with the autopsy will be involved, also there is the theory of witness protection-which I think may seem ridiculous but he did publicly slag off Tommy Mottola (calling him a devil) but all this is hearsay and we just do not know. He certainly upset people though!
The thing that swayed me one way is the financial aspect (Elvis has made much more money than ever since his death ) and the fact that MJ was a broken man after the court case and even if a lot knew he was innocent there are many more who thought otherwise and he was constantly getting ridiculed for many years and I think that he had been planning this for a long time-forgive me if no-one shares my theories but I think if one of his substitutes or doubles was terminally ill it would have given them ample time to plan/do the necessary with plastic surgery to make him look as near to MJ as you can. Therefore none of the hospital/ambulance staff etc would be in the least suspicious-this would explain the perfect ear in the ambulance photo etc, plus I think the "ambulance" photo is one that is part of the hoax that they put out as part of the hoax as my Uncle was a professional photographer at a local paper and he says there would be many photo's-not just one as they can do many frames per second with the professional cameras that they use.
I think all the number theories, the MJ giving out clues to his fans and the fact that is will do a great comeback is definitely not feasible (no offence to the believers) and I think the Cassandra woman we should totally disregard and I think the fact that people are actually asking her questions is encouraging her and she is just playing with peoples feelings and makes me sad to think there are such sick warped people in our society.
As for the 50 concerts-forgive me if I am wrong but I have read in a few places that as he was in debt to AEG and when he signed the contract it was worded as such that they could increase the number from 10, as I said I do not know if this is fact and maybe his lawyer didn't check closely enough so maybe this is the case but maybe we should try to look more closley into details like this.
I really respect your views and arguements and you have some very valid points, I enjoyed reading it but as a believer am sorry but every paragraph I thought "YES BUT......" anyway this is only my opinion but it just makes me think that we have HOPE as for an "unbeliever" to even consider these points makes me think that maybe just maybe a very little bit of you may be a "believer" Forgive me if you are 100% sure but keep watching and posting. I would really love to hear your opinion to what I have said. Take care.

Hi Harleyblonde! In regards to you saying it was a double that died, I would agree with you in that this would definitely narrow down the list of people involved. I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!

And while I have my "non-believer" hat on here (haha) I am interested in your thoughts on this - if a double DID die in MJ's place, how would they have 'replicated' the vitiligo?

I agree with your uncle also, about the cameras doing many frames per second. I have actually seen 3 ambulance photos though, not just the one. Have you seen the others? They are taken in the same second as the one everyone has seen, but there are slight variations, and you can tell they are different shots.

The contract - I wasn't aware they had worded it so they could increase the number of concerts. I don't know much about the contract at all, to be honest, only what I've heard on here, and I remember someone saying he signed for the first 10 and then his manager signed for the extra 40. But if what you say is true, then I guess that explains that. I don't know why he just didn't tell them he didn't want to do 50. I read somewhere else that he cried when they told him he had to do 50. Not sure if this is true or not but it broke my heart hearing that. I also heard it was minimum 50 shows, maximum 85. 85!!!!!

I too, as a "non-believer" read people's posts on here and go "Yes BUT...", LOL! So don't worry about that! I really respect the work you guys are doing on this site, and it's incredible how many holes you have uncovered in the whole death and the circumstances surrounding it. That's why I stick around. If I didn't think something weird was going on, I would just laugh at you guys and never return to the site. I may not think he is alive, but I do know that something weird is going on with the whole situation. As to whether or not I am 100% sure he is dead? I think I am. But that doesn't mean I am 100% against becoming a "believer". As I said before, if/when I come across something that I think is solid, 100% without a doubt, absolute PROOF, then I have no qualms in eating my words and saying "ok sorry guys. You were all right". But unless/until that happens, I remain fascinated, and hopeful that I can make some friends along the way
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:41 am

Truth_or_Dare wrote:Thanks for giving more of your reasons.
About the ambulance videos I'm talking about the differences between the official one posted by hollywood tv and the one made by the person in the start line bus. Even if there were 2 ambulances it still doesn't make sense. And it doesn;t add up. Not to me anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_VWCpIgrJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU

And btw, the paramedics did say they didn;t recognise him for about 10 minutes. They said he lookes like a very old and frail man.

No problem

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the videos, and I can give you my responses to them, if that would help?

I know - that's why I said how could they not recognise him? From that ambulance pic, blind Freddy would be able to tell it's MJ. Granted, it may not be, and it may not be real (LOL) but at first glance, without knowing ANYthing about his death and circumstances, you would go "Omg that's MJ" wouldn't you?

Harleyblonde wrote:You are very welcome and I love reading all the theories etc but some we should accept with a very open mind. I think we need to concentrate on ACTUAL proof such as photographs-ambulance, 02 Michael, rehearsal etc because if they are proved to be fake/doubles etc then there is definitely something very suspicious going on. Think we guessed that already but would be nice and very rewarding to have actual 100% proof.

Ok you know what the weird thing is? Wayyyy back in March when the press conference was, when I wasn't an MJ fan, when I knew not that much about him, I remember seeing the conference on the news, and thinking "Oh he's going on tour, that's cool". I also remember thinking "Gee he looks different - is that really him??!!!" I had no clue about doubles or hoaxes or anything back then, I had no attachment to him at that time or anything, and consequently didn't take it any further, but I do recall going "wow that really doesn't look like him". I found 02 guy strange at the time, and now I've done the research, I am still 80% sure it's not MJ. But there's a little part of me that thinks it might be, just with a deep voice, caked on makeup, etc etc. But I just can't shut the little voice up in my head that says "It really doesn't look like him". Then when I saw the behind the curtain MJ, I went "THAT is MJ" immediately. He looks soooo different to stage MJ. So yeah, I already half believe that he used doubles. I mean, I know he sent decoys to throw off the paps and stuff, but to actually make someone think he was seriously MJ. Not sure why he would use a double to make his big 'comeback' announcement for him, but anyway. That's another story too I guess... (How complicated has this whole situation become?! LOL!)
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by GirlSaturday on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:18 am

"I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!"


jess.loves.mj - I am in total agreement about the trust factor. I am a believer yet I wonder how many people could actually be trusted by him to maintain silence. I say few...very few.
"Loose lips sink ships"

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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:28 am

GirlSaturday wrote:"I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!"


jess.loves.mj - I am in total agreement about the trust factor. I am a believer yet I wonder how many people could actually be trusted by him to maintain silence. I say few...very few.
"Loose lips sink ships"


Very few indeed, I agree 100%
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:24 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:
GirlSaturday wrote:"I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!"


jess.loves.mj - I am in total agreement about the trust factor. I am a believer yet I wonder how many people could actually be trusted by him to maintain silence. I say few...very few.
"Loose lips sink ships"


Very few indeed, I agree 100%

You're both right..I agree with you but think about this..How many people would believe them?? Besides some of the people who believe in the hoax..I don't think anybody else would. We already have the precedent of the the "fake coroner van", which made a lot of people believe that he really is dead and many try and will try in making others believe he's alive; so I think their mind is set on not believing without any solid evidence. As for solid evidence, I don't think anybody has any, even if they know Michael is alive. I don't think he would let people he can't trust have solid evidence about the hoax.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:38 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:
Truth_or_Dare wrote:Thanks for giving more of your reasons.
About the ambulance videos I'm talking about the differences between the official one posted by hollywood tv and the one made by the person in the start line bus. Even if there were 2 ambulances it still doesn't make sense. And it doesn;t add up. Not to me anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_VWCpIgrJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU

And btw, the paramedics did say they didn;t recognise him for about 10 minutes. They said he lookes like a very old and frail man.

No problem

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the videos, and I can give you my responses to them, if that would help?

I know - that's why I said how could they not recognise him? From that ambulance pic, blind Freddy would be able to tell it's MJ. Granted, it may not be, and it may not be real (LOL) but at first glance, without knowing ANYthing about his death and circumstances, you would go "Omg that's MJ" wouldn't you?


I believe that that although those 2 video should be the same ( I mean shooting the same event only form different angles), and they do lolok almost the same at first glance, if you look at all the details, in turn, you can see some things are left out. Like in the first video ( he hollywood tv one) while the start line bus stays in front of the house there are no other cars passing pay. And they wouldn't even be able to cause of where it stopped. In the second video several cars pass them.
In the hollywood video you can see that the person who is filming is filming the back of the ambulance and then goes to the side. You can't see him going to the side on the second video.
And this is just to name 2.
For me it's enought to know that tese videos where shot more than once. And then put toghether but they left out a few minor detalis that you can't see unless you analise each details at a time.
I have no idea why they would do something like that; it seems easier to just call the amulance, go to hospital and that way whoever films this gets the same images. I can't explain why they went through all that trouble. But then again, I can't understand why the filmed the burial like they did either Razz
All I know for sure is that if he was dead and it was either accidental or conspiracy they wouldn't have left so many clues behind and def. not make such a crapy filming and editing of the/these videos.
I hope I made sense explaining!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:56 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:
Harleyblonde wrote:Yes Jess, you are right in saying it is a massive operation and it is this that makes me have my doubts and wonder if he is in fact dead but the the staunch believers think it was someone else and not MJ who actually dead and maybe this is possible and the ambulance, LAPD, forest lawn staff etc would not have any reason to think it was NOT Michael, surely only the ones actually dealing with the autopsy will be involved, also there is the theory of witness protection-which I think may seem ridiculous but he did publicly slag off Tommy Mottola (calling him a devil) but all this is hearsay and we just do not know. He certainly upset people though!
The thing that swayed me one way is the financial aspect (Elvis has made much more money than ever since his death ) and the fact that MJ was a broken man after the court case and even if a lot knew he was innocent there are many more who thought otherwise and he was constantly getting ridiculed for many years and I think that he had been planning this for a long time-forgive me if no-one shares my theories but I think if one of his substitutes or doubles was terminally ill it would have given them ample time to plan/do the necessary with plastic surgery to make him look as near to MJ as you can. Therefore none of the hospital/ambulance staff etc would be in the least suspicious-this would explain the perfect ear in the ambulance photo etc, plus I think the "ambulance" photo is one that is part of the hoax that they put out as part of the hoax as my Uncle was a professional photographer at a local paper and he says there would be many photo's-not just one as they can do many frames per second with the professional cameras that they use.
I think all the number theories, the MJ giving out clues to his fans and the fact that is will do a great comeback is definitely not feasible (no offence to the believers) and I think the Cassandra woman we should totally disregard and I think the fact that people are actually asking her questions is encouraging her and she is just playing with peoples feelings and makes me sad to think there are such sick warped people in our society.
As for the 50 concerts-forgive me if I am wrong but I have read in a few places that as he was in debt to AEG and when he signed the contract it was worded as such that they could increase the number from 10, as I said I do not know if this is fact and maybe his lawyer didn't check closely enough so maybe this is the case but maybe we should try to look more closley into details like this.
I really respect your views and arguements and you have some very valid points, I enjoyed reading it but as a believer am sorry but every paragraph I thought "YES BUT......" anyway this is only my opinion but it just makes me think that we have HOPE as for an "unbeliever" to even consider these points makes me think that maybe just maybe a very little bit of you may be a "believer" Forgive me if you are 100% sure but keep watching and posting. I would really love to hear your opinion to what I have said. Take care.

Hi Harleyblonde! In regards to you saying it was a double that died, I would agree with you in that this would definitely narrow down the list of people involved. I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!

And while I have my "non-believer" hat on here (haha) I am interested in your thoughts on this - if a double DID die in MJ's place, how would they have 'replicated' the vitiligo?

I agree with your uncle also, about the cameras doing many frames per second. I have actually seen 3 ambulance photos though, not just the one. Have you seen the others? They are taken in the same second as the one everyone has seen, but there are slight variations, and you can tell they are different shots.

The contract - I wasn't aware they had worded it so they could increase the number of concerts. I don't know much about the contract at all, to be honest, only what I've heard on here, and I remember someone saying he signed for the first 10 and then his manager signed for the extra 40. But if what you say is true, then I guess that explains that. I don't know why he just didn't tell them he didn't want to do 50. I read somewhere else that he cried when they told him he had to do 50. Not sure if this is true or not but it broke my heart hearing that. I also heard it was minimum 50 shows, maximum 85. 85!!!!!

I too, as a "non-believer" read people's posts on here and go "Yes BUT...", LOL! So don't worry about that! I really respect the work you guys are doing on this site, and it's incredible how many holes you have uncovered in the whole death and the circumstances surrounding it. That's why I stick around. If I didn't think something weird was going on, I would just laugh at you guys and never return to the site. I may not think he is alive, but I do know that something weird is going on with the whole situation. As to whether or not I am 100% sure he is dead? I think I am. But that doesn't mean I am 100% against becoming a "believer". As I said before, if/when I come across something that I think is solid, 100% without a doubt, absolute PROOF, then I have no qualms in eating my words and saying "ok sorry guys. You were all right". But unless/until that happens, I remain fascinated, and hopeful that I can make some friends along the way
Hi Jess,Thanks for your response which I really enjoyed reading and you have some really valid points. I really do see what you are getting at when you say you would not trust anyone enough not to blab. I do agree with you and for a fleeting moment I thought that maybe he is dead when faced with a logical question like this but then I think "yes but........." and my yes but this time is what if he promised a large sum of money for instance every year for life, maybe increasing as the years went by? that would be a sort of guarantee and hold over whoever was involved. Maybe I am clutching at straws but unfortunately most people will do virtually anything for money. Also if they have no idea of his whereabouts (the world is huge) how can you maybe sell your story when you cannot prove where he is, dont forget people sold stories about Elvis and people just thought they were crackpots.
As for the vitiligo, I dont think many people know about that apart from his dermatologist so perhaps people didn't know what to look for. I know years ago if you study photo's of him when he was dark skinned there are some which show clearly his patchy skin colour( (utube) but I am led to believe he worked round that by having his skin depigmentated and that is why he was very pale but I am not sure about patchy skin but bare chested he looked perfect to me!! Maybe we should try to find out more regarding his vitiligo. A very valid thing for you to bring to our attention.
I havn't seen the other ambulance photo's so I cannot comment. Did you notice anything odd about them and did they show a close up of the ears?
What really got me thinking "YES" is when you said a maximum of 85 concerts. 85!!!!! but then my heart sank when you said Michael cried when he was told he had to do 50. Why would he cry if he knew all along he wasn't going to do them and hoaxing his death? crocodile tears maybe? was he that good an actor? Who knows? Only Michael can answer that.
When I first thought he was no way dead I didn't realize how many questions there would be, but is really good to have you on board who is willing to hear us out and believe me it is good to have an unbiased opinion. No offence meant at all to anyone at all on this site but when I read posts such as "womens intuition" and "I feel he is alive" etc I feel a bit despondent, if womens intuition etc was correct why do guys get away with so much? We need to look at the hard facts here and it gets more intriguing day by day. Alas we may never get the answers. Anyway take care and keep searching!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Kuki on Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:18 pm

I consider myself as a believer, but sometimes it is so hard... therefore I am following this topic, to see what new "facts" come up. Keep up the good work!!!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:19 am

Truth_or_Dare wrote:
jess.loves.mj wrote:
GirlSaturday wrote:"I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!"


jess.loves.mj - I am in total agreement about the trust factor. I am a believer yet I wonder how many people could actually be trusted by him to maintain silence. I say few...very few.
"Loose lips sink ships"


Very few indeed, I agree 100%

You're both right..I agree with you but think about this..How many people would believe them?? Besides some of the people who believe in the hoax..I don't think anybody else would. We already have the precedent of the the "fake coroner van", which made a lot of people believe that he really is dead and many try and will try in making others believe he's alive; so I think their mind is set on not believing without any solid evidence. As for solid evidence, I don't think anybody has any, even if they know Michael is alive. I don't think he would let people he can't trust have solid evidence about the hoax.
Ok - you have a point there, I must admit

It would be like that crazy lady who claimed she and MJ are the biological parents of MJ's kids...AND Connor Cruise. LOL! I'll pay that, that is a very valid point, and one I had not considered until now

Truth_or_Dare wrote:
jess.loves.mj wrote:
Truth_or_Dare wrote:Thanks for giving more of your reasons.
About the ambulance videos I'm talking about the differences between the official one posted by hollywood tv and the one made by the person in the start line bus. Even if there were 2 ambulances it still doesn't make sense. And it doesn;t add up. Not to me anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_VWCpIgrJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU

And btw, the paramedics did say they didn;t recognise him for about 10 minutes. They said he lookes like a very old and frail man.

No problem

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the videos, and I can give you my responses to them, if that would help?

I know - that's why I said how could they not recognise him? From that ambulance pic, blind Freddy would be able to tell it's MJ. Granted, it may not be, and it may not be real (LOL) but at first glance, without knowing ANYthing about his death and circumstances, you would go "Omg that's MJ" wouldn't you?


I believe that that although those 2 video should be the same ( I mean shooting the same event only form different angles), and they do lolok almost the same at first glance, if you look at all the details, in turn, you can see some things are left out. Like in the first video ( he hollywood tv one) while the start line bus stays in front of the house there are no other cars passing pay. And they wouldn't even be able to cause of where it stopped. In the second video several cars pass them.
In the hollywood video you can see that the person who is filming is filming the back of the ambulance and then goes to the side. You can't see him going to the side on the second video.
And this is just to name 2.
For me it's enought to know that tese videos where shot more than once. And then put toghether but they left out a few minor detalis that you can't see unless you analise each details at a time.
I have no idea why they would do something like that; it seems easier to just call the amulance, go to hospital and that way whoever films this gets the same images. I can't explain why they went through all that trouble. But then again, I can't understand why the filmed the burial like they did either
All I know for sure is that if he was dead and it was either accidental or conspiracy they wouldn't have left so many clues behind and def. not make such a crapy filming and editing of the/these videos.
I hope I made sense explaining!

Regarding the ambulance videos. Do you mean the cars are going past after the ambulance has pulled out? Because if that's what you are referring to, I think the starline bus drove from waiting by the fire truck to directly in front of the driveway and then pulled over to have a good look, as the cars are going past, yet heading the same way, so they must be pulled over.
With the guy not going around the side, my logical explanation is the starline tourist's heads are in the way and you can't see him duck around the side. BUT (and I say BUT) the guy who goes running past the starline bus in the starline footage - I'm not sure where he fits in. I thought he was hollywood cameraman but he didn't duck around the side, he stayed at the rear of the ambulance and then goes running past the starline bus. The hollywood cameraman doesn't get into the red car - if you watch the hollywood vid frame by frame he actually runs past it to the black car which is parked behind the red car, but in *front* of the starline bus - but this is the car that red and yellow shirts are getting in (ie, the guys that were at the side of the ambulance taking the "last" photo. Here they are with the door open, I'm assuming hopping in the car:



Of course, my logical explanation of where hollywood cameraman goes to? He very well could have gone to the car behind the starline bus, but we can't be sure, because the video is cut off. Because the video is cut off is also the reason I think he did go to the car behind the bus. Because at the beginning of the video (which is actually halfway through), he is sitting in the car filming, when the bus approaches and blocks his view.

I also managed to snapshot this:



where you can see into the ambulance (nothing disrepectful) but it gives you an idea of why the picture was able to be taken through the tinted windows (with flash), if the videocamera could see inside with no flash.

Can you throw your opinion on the running man out there for me? You see him run past the starline bus in their footage, but in the hollywood tv vid, I don't think he gets as far as the bus, I think he only gets as far as red and yellow shirt's black car - then the video cuts, and he starts filming from his car (which is the beginning of the video, when the ambulance is first arriving, and the starline bus arriving too. I think he then gets out of the car because the starline bus blocks his view).

Thoughts?
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:03 am

Harleyblonde wrote:
jess.loves.mj wrote:
Harleyblonde wrote:Yes Jess, you are right in saying it is a massive operation and it is this that makes me have my doubts and wonder if he is in fact dead but the the staunch believers think it was someone else and not MJ who actually dead and maybe this is possible and the ambulance, LAPD, forest lawn staff etc would not have any reason to think it was NOT Michael, surely only the ones actually dealing with the autopsy will be involved, also there is the theory of witness protection-which I think may seem ridiculous but he did publicly slag off Tommy Mottola (calling him a devil) but all this is hearsay and we just do not know. He certainly upset people though!
The thing that swayed me one way is the financial aspect (Elvis has made much more money than ever since his death ) and the fact that MJ was a broken man after the court case and even if a lot knew he was innocent there are many more who thought otherwise and he was constantly getting ridiculed for many years and I think that he had been planning this for a long time-forgive me if no-one shares my theories but I think if one of his substitutes or doubles was terminally ill it would have given them ample time to plan/do the necessary with plastic surgery to make him look as near to MJ as you can. Therefore none of the hospital/ambulance staff etc would be in the least suspicious-this would explain the perfect ear in the ambulance photo etc, plus I think the "ambulance" photo is one that is part of the hoax that they put out as part of the hoax as my Uncle was a professional photographer at a local paper and he says there would be many photo's-not just one as they can do many frames per second with the professional cameras that they use.
I think all the number theories, the MJ giving out clues to his fans and the fact that is will do a great comeback is definitely not feasible (no offence to the believers) and I think the Cassandra woman we should totally disregard and I think the fact that people are actually asking her questions is encouraging her and she is just playing with peoples feelings and makes me sad to think there are such sick warped people in our society.
As for the 50 concerts-forgive me if I am wrong but I have read in a few places that as he was in debt to AEG and when he signed the contract it was worded as such that they could increase the number from 10, as I said I do not know if this is fact and maybe his lawyer didn't check closely enough so maybe this is the case but maybe we should try to look more closley into details like this.
I really respect your views and arguements and you have some very valid points, I enjoyed reading it but as a believer am sorry but every paragraph I thought "YES BUT......" anyway this is only my opinion but it just makes me think that we have HOPE as for an "unbeliever" to even consider these points makes me think that maybe just maybe a very little bit of you may be a "believer" Forgive me if you are 100% sure but keep watching and posting. I would really love to hear your opinion to what I have said. Take care.

Hi Harleyblonde! In regards to you saying it was a double that died, I would agree with you in that this would definitely narrow down the list of people involved. I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!

And while I have my "non-believer" hat on here (haha) I am interested in your thoughts on this - if a double DID die in MJ's place, how would they have 'replicated' the vitiligo?

I agree with your uncle also, about the cameras doing many frames per second. I have actually seen 3 ambulance photos though, not just the one. Have you seen the others? They are taken in the same second as the one everyone has seen, but there are slight variations, and you can tell they are different shots.

The contract - I wasn't aware they had worded it so they could increase the number of concerts. I don't know much about the contract at all, to be honest, only what I've heard on here, and I remember someone saying he signed for the first 10 and then his manager signed for the extra 40. But if what you say is true, then I guess that explains that. I don't know why he just didn't tell them he didn't want to do 50. I read somewhere else that he cried when they told him he had to do 50. Not sure if this is true or not but it broke my heart hearing that. I also heard it was minimum 50 shows, maximum 85. 85!!!!!

I too, as a "non-believer" read people's posts on here and go "Yes BUT...", LOL! So don't worry about that! I really respect the work you guys are doing on this site, and it's incredible how many holes you have uncovered in the whole death and the circumstances surrounding it. That's why I stick around. If I didn't think something weird was going on, I would just laugh at you guys and never return to the site. I may not think he is alive, but I do know that something weird is going on with the whole situation. As to whether or not I am 100% sure he is dead? I think I am. But that doesn't mean I am 100% against becoming a "believer". As I said before, if/when I come across something that I think is solid, 100% without a doubt, absolute PROOF, then I have no qualms in eating my words and saying "ok sorry guys. You were all right". But unless/until that happens, I remain fascinated, and hopeful that I can make some friends along the way

Hi Jess,Thanks for your response which I really enjoyed reading and you have some really valid points. I really do see what you are getting at when you say you would not trust anyone enough not to blab. I do agree with you and for a fleeting moment I thought that maybe he is dead when faced with a logical question like this but then I think "yes but........." and my yes but this time is what if he promised a large sum of money for instance every year for life, maybe increasing as the years went by? that would be a sort of guarantee and hold over whoever was involved. Maybe I am clutching at straws but unfortunately most people will do virtually anything for money. Also if they have no idea of his whereabouts (the world is huge) how can you maybe sell your story when you cannot prove where he is, dont forget people sold stories about Elvis and people just thought they were crackpots.
As for the vitiligo, I dont think many people know about that apart from his dermatologist so perhaps people didn't know what to look for. I know years ago if you study photo's of him when he was dark skinned there are some which show clearly his patchy skin colour( (utube) but I am led to believe he worked round that by having his skin depigmentated and that is why he was very pale but I am not sure about patchy skin but bare chested he looked perfect to me!! Maybe we should try to find out more regarding his vitiligo. A very valid thing for you to bring to our attention.
I havn't seen the other ambulance photo's so I cannot comment. Did you notice anything odd about them and did they show a close up of the ears?
What really got me thinking "YES" is when you said a maximum of 85 concerts. 85!!!!! but then my heart sank when you said Michael cried when he was told he had to do 50. Why would he cry if he knew all along he wasn't going to do them and hoaxing his death? crocodile tears maybe? was he that good an actor? Who knows? Only Michael can answer that.
When I first thought he was no way dead I didn't realize how many questions there would be, but is really good to have you on board who is willing to hear us out and believe me it is good to have an unbiased opinion. No offence meant at all to anyone at all on this site but when I read posts such as "womens intuition" and "I feel he is alive" etc I feel a bit despondent, if womens intuition etc was correct why do guys get away with so much? We need to look at the hard facts here and it gets more intriguing day by day. Alas we may never get the answers. Anyway take care and keep searching!

Hi Harleyblonde. I have to agree with you, that if this is a hoax, there is no question that there is money promised to the people involved. And larrrrrrrge sums of it. No doubt about that. But a large sum of money increasing as the years go by? I have to admit, I'm not sure of that. Think how many people are involved first, and how much you think they would be paid. It would have to be millions! Increasing that every year, for every person - where would MJ get all this money to start with, and how could he funnel it off to the "involved" without anyone noticing millions of dollars flying around? Yes, they may have no idea of his wherabouts, and people will do anything for money, there is no doubt about that. But on the other side of the coin, to some people it doesn't matter how much money is involved. For example, I am one of those people that would never eat anything disgusting (like a brain or a sheep tongue or anything like that) no matter how much I was paid. You could offer me a billion dollars and I couldn't do it. Also, who's to say a person wouldn't blab if they get offered more than what MJ is paying them? If he's paying a million bucks and some tabloid offers them 2.5 million for the story, most people would take advantage of that. Granted, tabloids are crap (we all know that!) and nobody might believe them, but they still would jump at the chance to make a quick buck.

Yes, the vitiligo/double is an interesting one. Wasn't it reported however, that he had "blotches" (sorry to bring this up) on his penis? The coroner would have seen these blotches (if he still had them by the time of death, as that area is a rather sensitive one and bleaching creams could not be pleasant for it!) but if he didn't have them - or any other sign of vitiligo it would raise suspicions, meaning whatever way the story goes (ie whether a double died, or nobody died), the coroner would have to be in on it. And how did they fake his fingerprints? Would someone really put their whole career on the line for this? I'm not sure.

The other ambulance photos don't look much different to the 'original' one, but there are slight variations, and no, they don't show a close up of the ears. I can PM them to you if you like, as I'd rather not post them here in case people get offended. I know that photo is a senstive subject, however if everyone is ok with it, I can post them for the people who haven't seen them.

"Why would he cry if he knew all along he wasn't going to do them and hoaxing his death?"
Exactly. Was he that good an actor? Who knows? He very well may have been acting. He also may have been genuine. However, this has not been confirmed, it has only been read, so who knows if it really even happened?

It does get more intruiging by the day doesn't it! I love this thread because it is making me really study everything hard, and come to my own conclusions, rather than just hear someone else's and think "Yeah well I think that too", you know what I mean? I hadn't done too much in depth research before this thread, just the basics, but I am totally loving delving deeper
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by yaya on Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:58 am

Truth_or_Dare wrote:This may seem like an odd thing to ask so please don't hate me ( the believers!).

I would like to ask the non believers or the once who think the chances are he's dead, why they think Michael is dead? Why is it that the evidence we have so far and all the things that are just TOO ODD lead you to think he dead rather than alive? And if you think he's dead and know all the odd things, how do you explain them, fitting with your believe.

Also if you are a believer and you know any non-believers and their reasons for thinking he's dead, do tell.

The reason I'm asking this is because lately I've been wondering if maybe the evidence we have can lead to a different reasonable explanation other than "he's alive". I haven't been able to find one yet. And if I believe something 100% I want to make sure it's really the only way to go. I've been focusing too much on proving he's alive with every new thing that maybe I'm not considering every possibility anymore.


Again, please don't hate me or judge for asking this. I just want to consider every option.

i'm a believer but one of my best friends is a non-believer. i think she thinks that way cuz she just took everything at face value. in the beginning, she told me she does think it's a conspiracy; only that he was actually murdered. my mom thinks pretty much the same thing and just the other day asked me if i think dr. murray will be arrested, to which i replied "no." fortunately enough, my husband IS a beliver!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Harleyblonde on Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:14 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:
Harleyblonde wrote:
jess.loves.mj wrote:
Harleyblonde wrote:Yes Jess, you are right in saying it is a massive operation and it is this that makes me have my doubts and wonder if he is in fact dead but the the staunch believers think it was someone else and not MJ who actually dead and maybe this is possible and the ambulance, LAPD, forest lawn staff etc would not have any reason to think it was NOT Michael, surely only the ones actually dealing with the autopsy will be involved, also there is the theory of witness protection-which I think may seem ridiculous but he did publicly slag off Tommy Mottola (calling him a devil) but all this is hearsay and we just do not know. He certainly upset people though!
The thing that swayed me one way is the financial aspect (Elvis has made much more money than ever since his death ) and the fact that MJ was a broken man after the court case and even if a lot knew he was innocent there are many more who thought otherwise and he was constantly getting ridiculed for many years and I think that he had been planning this for a long time-forgive me if no-one shares my theories but I think if one of his substitutes or doubles was terminally ill it would have given them ample time to plan/do the necessary with plastic surgery to make him look as near to MJ as you can. Therefore none of the hospital/ambulance staff etc would be in the least suspicious-this would explain the perfect ear in the ambulance photo etc, plus I think the "ambulance" photo is one that is part of the hoax that they put out as part of the hoax as my Uncle was a professional photographer at a local paper and he says there would be many photo's-not just one as they can do many frames per second with the professional cameras that they use.
I think all the number theories, the MJ giving out clues to his fans and the fact that is will do a great comeback is definitely not feasible (no offence to the believers) and I think the Cassandra woman we should totally disregard and I think the fact that people are actually asking her questions is encouraging her and she is just playing with peoples feelings and makes me sad to think there are such sick warped people in our society.
As for the 50 concerts-forgive me if I am wrong but I have read in a few places that as he was in debt to AEG and when he signed the contract it was worded as such that they could increase the number from 10, as I said I do not know if this is fact and maybe his lawyer didn't check closely enough so maybe this is the case but maybe we should try to look more closley into details like this.
I really respect your views and arguements and you have some very valid points, I enjoyed reading it but as a believer am sorry but every paragraph I thought "YES BUT......" anyway this is only my opinion but it just makes me think that we have HOPE as for an "unbeliever" to even consider these points makes me think that maybe just maybe a very little bit of you may be a "believer" Forgive me if you are 100% sure but keep watching and posting. I would really love to hear your opinion to what I have said. Take care.

Hi Harleyblonde! In regards to you saying it was a double that died, I would agree with you in that this would definitely narrow down the list of people involved. I still however, question how they would be able to trust ANYONE involved in 'THE most important operation of the century', you know what I mean? That's the biggest thing for me - how do they guarantee the person's silence? I myself wouldn't trust ANYone to help me fake my own death, other than my immediate family. If I had to put all my trust in the coroner and staff, etc I would be forever worrying they were going to let slip - and I'm just an average joe. This is MJ we're talking about!! No amount of money on this earth could make you stop wanting to blab. How tempting would it be?! Look how many people are cashing in on his name now - his own family included - how easy would it be to make a quick million or so, by telling how you helped fake his death? I don't know, I guess I just don't trust easily, LOL!

And while I have my "non-believer" hat on here (haha) I am interested in your thoughts on this - if a double DID die in MJ's place, how would they have 'replicated' the vitiligo?

I agree with your uncle also, about the cameras doing many frames per second. I have actually seen 3 ambulance photos though, not just the one. Have you seen the others? They are taken in the same second as the one everyone has seen, but there are slight variations, and you can tell they are different shots.

The contract - I wasn't aware they had worded it so they could increase the number of concerts. I don't know much about the contract at all, to be honest, only what I've heard on here, and I remember someone saying he signed for the first 10 and then his manager signed for the extra 40. But if what you say is true, then I guess that explains that. I don't know why he just didn't tell them he didn't want to do 50. I read somewhere else that he cried when they told him he had to do 50. Not sure if this is true or not but it broke my heart hearing that. I also heard it was minimum 50 shows, maximum 85. 85!!!!!

I too, as a "non-believer" read people's posts on here and go "Yes BUT...", LOL! So don't worry about that! I really respect the work you guys are doing on this site, and it's incredible how many holes you have uncovered in the whole death and the circumstances surrounding it. That's why I stick around. If I didn't think something weird was going on, I would just laugh at you guys and never return to the site. I may not think he is alive, but I do know that something weird is going on with the whole situation. As to whether or not I am 100% sure he is dead? I think I am. But that doesn't mean I am 100% against becoming a "believer". As I said before, if/when I come across something that I think is solid, 100% without a doubt, absolute PROOF, then I have no qualms in eating my words and saying "ok sorry guys. You were all right". But unless/until that happens, I remain fascinated, and hopeful that I can make some friends along the way

Hi Jess,Thanks for your response which I really enjoyed reading and you have some really valid points. I really do see what you are getting at when you say you would not trust anyone enough not to blab. I do agree with you and for a fleeting moment I thought that maybe he is dead when faced with a logical question like this but then I think "yes but........." and my yes but this time is what if he promised a large sum of money for instance every year for life, maybe increasing as the years went by? that would be a sort of guarantee and hold over whoever was involved. Maybe I am clutching at straws but unfortunately most people will do virtually anything for money. Also if they have no idea of his whereabouts (the world is huge) how can you maybe sell your story when you cannot prove where he is, dont forget people sold stories about Elvis and people just thought they were crackpots.
As for the vitiligo, I dont think many people know about that apart from his dermatologist so perhaps people didn't know what to look for. I know years ago if you study photo's of him when he was dark skinned there are some which show clearly his patchy skin colour( (utube) but I am led to believe he worked round that by having his skin depigmentated and that is why he was very pale but I am not sure about patchy skin but bare chested he looked perfect to me!! Maybe we should try to find out more regarding his vitiligo. A very valid thing for you to bring to our attention.
I havn't seen the other ambulance photo's so I cannot comment. Did you notice anything odd about them and did they show a close up of the ears?
What really got me thinking "YES" is when you said a maximum of 85 concerts. 85!!!!! but then my heart sank when you said Michael cried when he was told he had to do 50. Why would he cry if he knew all along he wasn't going to do them and hoaxing his death? crocodile tears maybe? was he that good an actor? Who knows? Only Michael can answer that.
When I first thought he was no way dead I didn't realize how many questions there would be, but is really good to have you on board who is willing to hear us out and believe me it is good to have an unbiased opinion. No offence meant at all to anyone at all on this site but when I read posts such as "womens intuition" and "I feel he is alive" etc I feel a bit despondent, if womens intuition etc was correct why do guys get away with so much? We need to look at the hard facts here and it gets more intriguing day by day. Alas we may never get the answers. Anyway take care and keep searching!

Hi Harleyblonde. I have to agree with you, that if this is a hoax, there is no question that there is money promised to the people involved. And larrrrrrrge sums of it. No doubt about that. But a large sum of money increasing as the years go by? I have to admit, I'm not sure of that. Think how many people are involved first, and how much you think they would be paid. It would have to be millions! Increasing that every year, for every person - where would MJ get all this money to start with, and how could he funnel it off to the "involved" without anyone noticing millions of dollars flying around? Yes, they may have no idea of his wherabouts, and people will do anything for money, there is no doubt about that. But on the other side of the coin, to some people it doesn't matter how much money is involved. For example, I am one of those people that would never eat anything disgusting (like a brain or a sheep tongue or anything like that) no matter how much I was paid. You could offer me a billion dollars and I couldn't do it. Also, who's to say a person wouldn't blab if they get offered more than what MJ is paying them? If he's paying a million bucks and some tabloid offers them 2.5 million for the story, most people would take advantage of that. Granted, tabloids are crap (we all know that!) and nobody might believe them, but they still would jump at the chance to make a quick buck.

Yes, the vitiligo/double is an interesting one. Wasn't it reported however, that he had "blotches" (sorry to bring this up) on his penis? The coroner would have seen these blotches (if he still had them by the time of death, as that area is a rather sensitive one and bleaching creams could not be pleasant for it!) but if he didn't have them - or any other sign of vitiligo it would raise suspicions, meaning whatever way the story goes (ie whether a double died, or nobody died), the coroner would have to be in on it. And how did they fake his fingerprints? Would someone really put their whole career on the line for this? I'm not sure.

The other ambulance photos don't look much different to the 'original' one, but there are slight variations, and no, they don't show a close up of the ears. I can PM them to you if you like, as I'd rather not post them here in case people get offended. I know that photo is a senstive subject, however if everyone is ok with it, I can post them for the people who haven't seen them.

"Why would he cry if he knew all along he wasn't going to do them and hoaxing his death?"
Exactly. Was he that good an actor? Who knows? He very well may have been acting. He also may have been genuine. However, this has not been confirmed, it has only been read, so who knows if it really even happened?

It does get more intruiging by the day doesn't it! I love this thread because it is making me really study everything hard, and come to my own conclusions, rather than just hear someone else's and think "Yeah well I think that too", you know what I mean? I hadn't done too much in depth research before this thread, just the basics, but I am totally loving delving deeper

Hi Jess, Thanks for your posting, you are right-it is getting very intriguing and is very enlightening to have a very friendly discussion with one from "the other side" so to speak. First of all I must say that you have really done your homework and I respect your arguments and opinions and in some aspects I agree but then the little voice saying "what if?" pops up. I truly wish sometimes I was a non believer and then I wouldn't have sleepless nights and mentally beat myself when I come across a theory that I cannot get my head around and make logical. Nevertheless I live in hope that up King is alive and well and I know that a mind cannot accept things that are too awful to contemplate but as you say there are too many irregularities.
Right-as for the vitiligo, I dont know about his penis (wish I had found out!!-sorry girls am being very naughty) but do we know for fact it was blotchy? we did over the years read some strange things regarding MJ and most of them were untrue. sorry but he didn't bleach his skin as far as I know and he did in an filmed interview say he had to undergo a skin de-pigmentation so surely that would do it all. Get it-no pigment?? I could be wrong but it kinda makes sense. the fingerprints are a very good point but I think the guy who does the autopsy would have to be in on it but this is only my speculation. the large main key players would have to be in on the hoax. As for the not eating disgusting meat-I really see what you are getting at. but saying that I am a vegetarian and do not eat any meat at all, I think we can live quite well without having to eat what once was a life. The point I am getting at is that when I lived in Africa for a few years, things at times didn't go well for us (hubby is Kenyan) and I had to eat meat as there was nothing else apart from ugali which you eat with meat and is totally disgusting but I wont go into that!!. The point is that people sometimes have to do the necessary even though it basically against their beliefs- maybe the people in on the hoax felt sorry for him, thought he had given enough to the world and as well as probably financial gain they maybe wanted to do this for him. He was a sweet person and very easy to love/admire even by men.
As for paying them off-a very good point you have made and I am not trying to cut down your thoughts but I dont think tabloids will buy (certainly not for a couple of million) any story without having some sort of proof and I think MJ would have covered all evidence and no-one but his close family will know where he is. Dont you think any crackpot who loved money could turn up and claim stuff like this. I dont think the papers-trashy as they are would fall for that. It came to my attention a while ago that when there are unsolved murders nutters will go to the police and claim to have done it-they just want the fame etc.
Anyway just my ideas and if you think I am being a bit too optimistic please feel free to tell me-I will not take offence at all. I would be grateful if you could PM me those ambulance photo's if you are able. Take care and stay on this forum-you are a very valuable asset to us.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:40 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:

Regarding the ambulance videos. Do you mean the cars are going past after the ambulance has pulled out? Because if that's what you are referring to, I think the starline bus drove from waiting by the fire truck to directly in front of the driveway and then pulled over to have a good look, as the cars are going past, yet heading the same way, so they must be pulled over.
With the guy not going around the side, my logical explanation is the starline tourist's heads are in the way and you can't see him duck around the side. BUT (and I say BUT) the guy who goes running past the starline bus in the starline footage - I'm not sure where he fits in. I thought he was hollywood cameraman but he didn't duck around the side, he stayed at the rear of the ambulance and then goes running past the starline bus. The hollywood cameraman doesn't get into the red car - if you watch the hollywood vid frame by frame he actually runs past it to the black car which is parked behind the red car, but in *front* of the starline bus - but this is the car that red and yellow shirts are getting in (ie, the guys that were at the side of the ambulance taking the "last" photo. Here they are with the door open, I'm assuming hopping in the car:



Of course, my logical explanation of where hollywood cameraman goes to? He very well could have gone to the car behind the starline bus, but we can't be sure, because the video is cut off. Because the video is cut off is also the reason I think he did go to the car behind the bus. Because at the beginning of the video (which is actually halfway through), he is sitting in the car filming, when the bus approaches and blocks his view.

I also managed to snapshot this:



where you can see into the ambulance (nothing disrepectful) but it gives you an idea of why the picture was able to be taken through the tinted windows (with flash), if the videocamera could see inside with no flash.

Can you throw your opinion on the running man out there for me? You see him run past the starline bus in their footage, but in the hollywood tv vid, I don't think he gets as far as the bus, I think he only gets as far as red and yellow shirt's black car - then the video cuts, and he starts filming from his car (which is the beginning of the video, when the ambulance is first arriving, and the starline bus arriving too. I think he then gets out of the car because the starline bus blocks his view).

Thoughts?

I meant the cars going past the start line bus while it is still in front of the house. In the tourist video you can clearly see that, yet in the hollywood tv one you don't. And if you calculate the time ( how many seconds the cars start to pass them after they stopped in from of the house) it doesn't add either.
The guy with the camera running: it should be the same event shot by 2 cameras at the same time only from different angles. When the guy in the hollywood tv runs you can clearly see that the street is clear, at least in the first few metters. The star line bus, if it's there it's not as close to the ambulance and to the gates as it appears to be in the toursit video. And if was a different guy in the toursit video that we saw, different form the one who shot in the hollywood tv video, why should all see the guy who shot in the htv video, right? And we only see one cameraman running.
Remember this should be the same event, at the same time, shot by 2 different people from differnt angles!
Too many things don't fit, don't go together. Even one thing is enought for me that these we shot more than once and with no attention to details!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:36 am

Hey guys, I will reply to this thread tomorrow. Have had a couple of HUGE days at work and need some early nights Harley, I will also PM you sometime tomorrow. Peace
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Dutch on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:14 am

I'm a non-believer when reasoning that if MJ hoaxed his death and plans a comeback, he'll be chewed up and spit out by most people. Globally hardcore MJ fans are a minority and they would defend MJ until eternity, however the majority of people (with in the lead those working for the tabloids) would be happy to trash and harass MJ for the rest of his life should he pop up among the living again. This is no rocket science....anyone with half a brain is capable of figuring that out. He would not have a single quiet minute anymore without having to explain why. Also, the number of people involved is too big and the more people are being let in on a secret, the more chances someone will break the silence in return for a huge amount of money. Have in mind what they paid for the image of a dead MJ....they would pay at least tenfold of that for an image which would show definite proof MJ is still alive as it would be the scoop of the century.

I'm a believer when looking at all the inconsistencies, the delays, the major fk ups:

- law enforcement missing it totally. They have a dead person and the LAPD does not seal the place where an eventual homicide took place? CM, the last person to be seen with a live MJ, disappears shortly after news was given to the world MJ died. CM admits he has given MJ the propofol which, according to the coroner, caused MJ's death. Still CM is walking the streets. Why? People have been and are being put behind bars for much less.

- TMZ shows a series of images of the Neverland raid taken for evidence by cops searching the ranch. How and from where did these images pop up? Certainly TMZ did not have these images before June 25th otherwise they would have put them up long before. So someone has given them to TMZ. Most likely law enforcement or the Jackson family. Why, what's the purpose? Among these images was the one of a letter of some doctor with some lines in bold (one of them "This is it"). Which cop would take an image under such an angle? Imho this image is manufactured and deliberately added to the series. Why? To make people believe MJ was on prescription meds for years already (so it would close the case easier in a later stage)?

- odd behavior and contradicting stories of family and friends about practically anything related to MJ and his death.

- odd behavior of the prime suspect (in the public eye) of MJ's death.....CM. Who in his right mind would post a clip to Youtube while being such a big player in such high profile case?

I'm afraid though that the big public will never learn the full ins and outs of all the why's, how's and when's......it's not in the benefit of anyone involved in this case.

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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Truth_or_Dare on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:47 am

Dutch wrote:I'm a non-believer when reasoning that if MJ hoaxed his death and plans a comeback, he'll be chewed up and spit out by most people. Globally hardcore MJ fans are a minority and they would defend MJ until eternity, however the majority of people (with in the lead those working for the tabloids) would be happy to trash and harass MJ for the rest of his life should he pop up among the living again. This is no rocket science....anyone with half a brain is capable of figuring that out. He would not have a single quiet minute anymore without having to explain why. Also, the number of people involved is too big and the more people are being let in on a secret, the more chances someone will break the silence in return for a huge amount of money. Have in mind what they paid for the image of a dead MJ....they would pay at least tenfold of that for an image which would show definite proof MJ is still alive as it would be the scoop of the century.

I'm a believer when looking at all the inconsistencies, the delays, the major fk ups:

- law enforcement missing it totally. They have a dead person and the LAPD does not seal the place where an eventual homicide took place? CM, the last person to be seen with a live MJ, disappears shortly after news was given to the world MJ died. CM admits he has given MJ the propofol which, according to the coroner, caused MJ's death. Still CM is walking the streets. Why? People have been and are being put behind bars for much less.

- TMZ shows a series of images of the Neverland raid taken for evidence by cops searching the ranch. How and from where did these images pop up? Certainly TMZ did not have these images before June 25th otherwise they would have put them up long before. So someone has given them to TMZ. Most likely law enforcement or the Jackson family. Why, what's the purpose? Among these images was the one of a letter of some doctor with some lines in bold (one of them "This is it"). Which cop would take an image under such an angle? Imho this image is manufactured and deliberately added to the series. Why? To make people believe MJ was on prescription meds for years already (so it would close the case easier in a later stage)?

- odd behavior and contradicting stories of family and friends about practically anything related to MJ and his death.

- odd behavior of the prime suspect (in the public eye) of MJ's death.....CM. Who in his right mind would post a clip to Youtube while being such a big player in such high profile case?

I'm afraid though that the big public will never learn the full ins and outs of all the why's, how's and when's......it's not in the benefit of anyone involved in this case.

Thanks for posting Dutch. I agree with you on most things but I have something to add. Why would MJ leave so many things behind if he didnt want to be "discovered"? If he really wanted to disappear for good, why go through all the trouble with so many details? Easier things are of course..easier to do...so why make it complicated? If he didn't want anyone to qustion it? And be "dead" to the whole world? Yes, I know you can't do everything perfect, and a few people will see the mistakes you made, but with so many inconsistancies that more than just a few people so...It just doesn't make sense to me to never come back.
Does it make sense to you?
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by GirlSaturday on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:54 am

Good post Dutch.

I am a believer in the hoax yet I do not believe that he plans a return or comeback. I do believe that there would be many people taking on a crusade to bring down the man who duped them.

Dutch wrote:I'm a non-believer when reasoning that if MJ hoaxed his death and plans a comeback, he'll be chewed up and spit out by most people. Globally hardcore MJ fans are a minority and they would defend MJ until eternity, however the majority of people (with in the lead those working for the tabloids) would be happy to trash and harass MJ for the rest of his life should he pop up among the living again. This is no rocket science....anyone with half a brain is capable of figuring that out. He would not have a single quiet minute anymore without having to explain why. Also, the number of people involved is too big and the more people are being let in on a secret, the more chances someone will break the silence in return for a huge amount of money. Have in mind what they paid for the image of a dead MJ....they would pay at least tenfold of that for an image which would show definite proof MJ is still alive as it would be the scoop of the century.

I'm a believer when looking at all the inconsistencies, the delays, the major fk ups:

- law enforcement missing it totally. They have a dead person and the LAPD does not seal the place where an eventual homicide took place? CM, the last person to be seen with a live MJ, disappears shortly after news was given to the world MJ died. CM admits he has given MJ the propofol which, according to the coroner, caused MJ's death. Still CM is walking the streets. Why? People have been and are being put behind bars for much less.

- TMZ shows a series of images of the Neverland raid taken for evidence by cops searching the ranch. How and from where did these images pop up? Certainly TMZ did not have these images before June 25th otherwise they would have put them up long before. So someone has given them to TMZ. Most likely law enforcement or the Jackson family. Why, what's the purpose? Among these images was the one of a letter of some doctor with some lines in bold (one of them "This is it"). Which cop would take an image under such an angle? Imho this image is manufactured and deliberately added to the series. Why? To make people believe MJ was on prescription meds for years already (so it would close the case easier in a later stage)?

- odd behavior and contradicting stories of family and friends about practically anything related to MJ and his death.

- odd behavior of the prime suspect (in the public eye) of MJ's death.....CM. Who in his right mind would post a clip to Youtube while being such a big player in such high profile case?

I'm afraid though that the big public will never learn the full ins and outs of all the why's, how's and when's......it's not in the benefit of anyone involved in this case.
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by ilprincipe on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:58 am

I just can quote one sentence of MBMJ..she said:

He never wanted to go down in history as a druggy....

and for me
I can accept that he may have died...
but not NOW
and esp. not like this...

so I`m a believer...
believing he'll return...to explain among other things that he's not a morphine druggy Smile
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by MJmylife90 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:09 am

jess.loves.mj wrote:Hi guys. I have spoken with Red Velvet about this before, tried to give an explanation, and I will try and do that again here. Warning: this will be looooong

I am a "non-believer", that is true. But, that doesn't mean I'm here to cut you down and try and make you think he is dead. Why do I think he is dead? I'm not really sure how to answer that. I'm not sure I can explain it. But I'll try

Before MJ died (or "died" hehe) I wasn't a hardcore fan. I wasn't much of a fan at all actually, to be honest - I would sing and dance around to his songs on the radio when I heard them, but that was about as far as it went. Don't get me wrong, he always intruiged me, and I would listen to stories about him on the news or read what they were saying in the paper, but never took any real notice of what people were saying. I did loosely follow his trial on the news though back in the day, and thought he was innocent. I am still sure of that today, even more so now I know more about him.

When I first heard he was dead/"dead" I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach. I don't know why - I had no connection or attachment to him, but something inside me snapped and I was completely devastated. I wanted to know more about him, started listening to more of his songs (the ones I hadn't heard of before) and then started kicking myself that it's taken me this long to realise how awesome his music really is, and I've now become a hardcore fan. I LOVE him! Such a genius (as I'm sure you'll agree, hehe). So in my thirst for "all stories MJ" not long after his death, I somehow stumbled across this site (and MJHD). I was totally fascinated at all the "evidence" and theories all you guys are coming up with, and although I don't think he's alive, I do know that there are way too many inconsistencies for it to be a simple case. He didn't just die at home, get rushed to hospital and then taken to the coroner. There are a lot of weird things. So I decided to stick around and become part of it

As for why I think MJ is dead? I'm not really sure. I guess I had no emotional connection/attachment to him before I heard the news, so although I was like "Wth?! No way! He's dead!?" I accepted it after the initial shock subsided. (And boy was it shock - you wake up one morning to hear MICHAEL JACKSON has died??? How random! Even though I wasn't a fan, I appreciated how much of a superstar he was) I'm not insisting he is dead. I'm not like "You guys are all wrong, he is dead". I happen to think he is dead, but I'm not trying to make anyone else join me in my opinion. I respect that I am the "enemy" so to speak (lol) on a death hoax site, not believing the hoax, but there's no way I'm going to try and convince any of you that he is dead. I have my opinion, and if/when I come across something that really, truly, 100% without a doubt changes my mind, then hey - I will join you guys on the "other side", hehe. I also think its a hell of a LOT of trouble to go to, faking your death to get away from the media, etc, when it would be so much easier to do it (getting away I mean) while still alive (eg look at when he lived in Bahrain - heard hardly anything about him for a few years). And faking your death to get out of 50 concerts? I'm sure if all these people are working together to help him fake his death (and think about just how many people would have to be involved!) surely there would have been some doctor to fake that he was too sick to do the concerts or something, you know?

I think that I am able to see things objectively BECAUSE of the fact I wasn't a huge fan before. Although I'd love for him to still be alive, I think because I've already accepted his death and I'm at peace with it (even though it was a hard thought to get used to) it is easier for me to think about him being dead. Whereas the "believers" are so sure he is still alive, when they think about him being dead they hurt so much and cry and feel sick/depressed etc etc and it is too hard for them to face, so it is easier to think he is alive, you know what I mean? It is easier to deal with and face.

I still feel sick when I think about the fact he is actually dead, and I've shed my share of tears over the fact. But by the time I found this site I was already in the acceptance stage, and to think he might still be alive is just a bit of a stretch for me. Don't get me wrong, I can certainly see WHY you guys think this - I have seen all the evidence you've brought forward and it's a bloody good argument. I just think also because I can see things objectively, that surely there's a logical explanation for things. BUT having said all that, I must admit, that even for a "non believer", the amount of discrepancies and inconsistencies amazes me, and that is why I am on this site, to keep up to date with the research you guys are doing, and who knows - maybe there'll be a big breakthrough that just might sway me. Until then, I'm really enjoying the detective work. It's not about proving MJ is still alive for me. (Although if he is, how awesome!) It's more about debunking each individual discrepancy. Sort of like problem solving (which I HATED at school, LOL!) Like I said, it's fascinating, and this site has become so addictive for me, I'm up til 1/2am every night because I can't put the laptop down! Hahaha.

What brought me to this site then? I have to say I honestly can't remember. LOL! Like I said, I was on the internet day and night, reading everything I could about Michael (ok, I am obsessed with him, I will admit it, LOL!), and somewhere along the way, I stumbled into MJHD. I think that came about after seeing those "Michael Jackson's ghost at Neverland" and "Michael Jackson appears on a car bonnet" type stories, and somewhere in all the pages and pages that I read, there must have been a link to a page about the hoax. I remember thinking "oh lord, now they think he's faked his death?! come on" (or should it have been "shamon" hehehe) and rolling my eyes. Then, somehow I clicked onto the MJHD site (curiosity got the better of me, I must admit, and I remember thinking to myself "what on earth could possibly make them think this is a hoax? This I have to see" lol) and started reading, highly interested (albeit sceptical lol) in their reasoning for thinking he was still alive. Rather than the "He just has to be alive, there's no way he's dead, I can feel it" or "He faked his death!!! Me and my friends saw him in Miami 3 days ago" (etc etc) sort of dribble I was expecting, there was actually solid evidence of all these inconsistencies surrounding his death/"death" from the second he stopped breathing/collapsed (which is it? no one knows!) right up to the present day (eg burial). And so the obsession began, LOL! Since stumbling across that site, I have got only a few hours sleep each night because I am on the laptop half the damn night, not being able to go to sleep because it's so enthralling. And that's just reading, not posting anything! After trying in vain to register at MJHD so I could join in the discussions debunking the ambulance saga and the ed hardy story (for some reason, I couldn't get the password confirmation email) I somehow, somewhere found a link to THIS site (don't ask me how, I honestly have no idea, LOL!) and was able to join immediately.


I also plan to stick around, because not only does no one in my "real" life have no idea that people out there think this is a hoax and they have solid evidence that even I can see, no one in my "real" life likes MJ, or has the same respect/admiration/obsession for/with him as I now do, LOL! I love being able to talk to like-minded people who know why I love him, or know what gold pants means, or know how much of an impact MJ has had on my life - you guys really do know, because you feel the same and I love being able to talk without having to explain anything (except why I think he is dead, LOL!)

As Red Velvet brought to my attention, I think the early acceptance thing is the key. I had accepted and come to peace with Michael's death/"death" before the memorial I guess. I know that sounds bad, and it sounds like "how could you get over it so quickly" but remember I had no attachment to him prior to this. And while I had accepted it, it didn't mean I was ok with it. Every day I get up and listen to his music on my ipod and wish June 25th never happened. Maybe it didn't, but it still happened, you know what I mean? Even if he is still alive, June 25 still happened. I feel sick when I think about the fact that he will never create a new piece of music again. That he will never pull something amazing out of his head and turn it into this incredible, indescribable experience for the listener. That no one will ever see a live moonwalk again. That the King Of Pop (that has such magnitude!) is now lying, cold and lifeless in a box forever. Its so sad! I'd love to be able to think it's not true, but I'm just not sure I can.

And for anyone confused on how I had no connection/attachment to Michael prior to his death, yet now speak of the impact he has had on my life, it is since learning about who he was, discovering his music and being taken in by "the force" that I have now become a "hardcore" fan, if you will. Had all this happened and I was a hardcore fan *before* he died, I probably would have been in denial, grasping at straws for any inkling that he was still alive too, etc etc. Not saying you guys are in denial, but I have spoken to a few people who really seem as though that is the case.

Having said all that, I love this site, and the people on it. I'm not going to deny the inconsistencies, and you'd have to be blind not to notice them. I guess I'm just too logical to be able to let myself believe he's still alive. It's too much of a stretch for me. That doesn't mean I am steadfast in my opinion that he is dead and that's that. As I said, if I do come across something that really, truly makes me change my mind, I will join you guys on the "believer" side. And if not, but he *does* "come back to life" (so to speak) later down the track? I will happily be "told so". I think that would be fantastic. At the moment though, I just can't bring myself to think he is alive.


I hope I have explained myself adequately. I'm not sure anyone else will be able to understand me, or my way of thinking, because I can't even put into words all the stuff in my head, LOL! "Why do you think he is dead" is such a simple question, but when I really thought about it, it was so complex! Do you understand where I'm coming from though? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in response, and even more interested to hear from any other "non believers".

ANYONE: Please feel free to PM me with any further enquiries, debates, discussion, or just to chat


hi jess,
it seems that your thoughts are practically the same as i am...
i have to admit that i wasn't really into michael before this but still have his song played on my itunes...but never into him..suddenly after his death,i felt half of my world has vanished!! seriously i dunno why... i never listen to all his songs and never a fan indeed!! but this whole keep bigger and bigger... after that, i started to listen to his songs (now i have almost 70 songs in my itunes! lol), his vids, his tour and even his speech! and i've got to say that he's a really a genius and well-educated person..!!the way he express his thoughts in so many different ways really catch my attention! the way he stood up against political, media, and government really takes up a strong courage..i respect and idolized him because of that..the way he presented his speech during public lecture in oxford, i can see how far that man is thinking about the future and he's not a shallow man who thinks the benefit that produce in the short terms...he's take it for the long one..now, i must admit that i really regret for not open my eyes to see the precious diamond in the world...and i don't even deserve to called myself a fan..but i really love you michael..! i'm so sorry...this guilt will never be gone..

as for non-believers and believers, i must say that i'm in the middle right now...it's not that i believe he is dead nor alive but i really don't know...i'm still looking for the answer until now..somehow i've got a hunch to discover the hoax theory..i found so many things that really open my eyes! thanks to you guys!! you did a great job on revealing this...but that doesn't mean my believes of his death are gone...like i said before,i'm still looking for the answer until now..please don't make a bad comments on me..i just expressing my thoughts..please don't hate me! i hope we can all team up together and discover the truth...

KEEP THE FAITH,SOON THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL
L.O.V.E
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:39 am

Harleyblonde wrote:Hi Jess, Thanks for your posting, you are right-it is getting very intriguing and is very enlightening to have a very friendly discussion with one from "the other side" so to speak. First of all I must say that you have really done your homework and I respect your arguments and opinions and in some aspects I agree but then the little voice saying "what if?" pops up. I truly wish sometimes I was a non believer and then I wouldn't have sleepless nights and mentally beat myself when I come across a theory that I cannot get my head around and make logical. Nevertheless I live in hope that up King is alive and well and I know that a mind cannot accept things that are too awful to contemplate but as you say there are too many irregularities.

Hi Harley - I love our friendly discussions, hehehe. It really gets my brain going when I come to this thread and read everyone's responses to my posts, LOL! I respect everyone's arguments and opinions and I love that we can have this sort of discussion!

Harleyblonde wrote:Right-as for the vitiligo, I dont know about his penis (wish I had found out!!-sorry girls am being very naughty) but do we know for fact it was blotchy? we did over the years read some strange things regarding MJ and most of them were untrue. sorry but he didn't bleach his skin as far as I know and he did in an filmed interview say he had to undergo a skin de-pigmentation so surely that would do it all. Get it-no pigment?? I could be wrong but it kinda makes sense. the fingerprints are a very good point but I think the guy who does the autopsy would have to be in on it but this is only my speculation. the large main key players would have to be in on the hoax.

I believe I read it regarding the trial, or the first instances of accusations, not sure which one. The accuser (can't remember if it was Jordy or Gavin) supposedly described "blotches" on MJ's "genitals" (to quote lol) and then a strip search was requested to see if this "description" was accurate. Now I don't know if it was or not, but I have read reports that the description was correct. Or a near match, or something like that (it was so long ago lol). So I'm not sure. But again - how do we know it's even true? It's not like we'll ever be able to prove it one way or another, right? I agree that the fingerprinting guy would have to be in on it. That's for sure. There's no way they could get fake fingerprints (or someone else's fingerprints) past him if he was not involved)

Harleyblonde wrote:As for the not eating disgusting meat-I really see what you are getting at. but saying that I am a vegetarian and do not eat any meat at all, I think we can live quite well without having to eat what once was a life. The point I am getting at is that when I lived in Africa for a few years, things at times didn't go well for us (hubby is Kenyan) and I had to eat meat as there was nothing else apart from ugali which you eat with meat and is totally disgusting but I wont go into that!!. The point is that people sometimes have to do the necessary even though it basically against their beliefs- maybe the people in on the hoax felt sorry for him, thought he had given enough to the world and as well as probably financial gain they maybe wanted to do this for him. He was a sweet person and very easy to love/admire even by men.

I totally agree with you there - people will definitely do the necessary to get by. For sure. The point I was getting at though, was that no matter how much money you offer someone, for some people it just wouldn't be enough. On the other hand though, for people like us, no amount of money could make us spill the beans, you know what I mean? I guess the major hang up in the whole hoax theory for me, is the silence guarantee. Being one who does not trust others too easily, I just find it hard to comprehend the amount of trust placed in whoever is involved. Don't get me wrong, there would be plenty of people out there who would want to do this for him, for the reasons you have put above. Absolutely. But, as we have seen, there were also plenty of people who wanted to drag him and his name as far through the mud as they could. Whether he is alive or not, I am glad he is "away" from these types of people.

Harleyblonde wrote:As for paying them off-a very good point you have made and I am not trying to cut down your thoughts but I dont think tabloids will buy (certainly not for a couple of million) any story without having some sort of proof and I think MJ would have covered all evidence and no-one but his close family will know where he is. Dont you think any crackpot who loved money could turn up and claim stuff like this. I dont think the papers-trashy as they are would fall for that. It came to my attention a while ago that when there are unsolved murders nutters will go to the police and claim to have done it-they just want the fame etc.
Anyway just my ideas and if you think I am being a bit too optimistic please feel free to tell me-I will not take offence at all. I would be grateful if you could PM me those ambulance photo's if you are able. Take care and stay on this forum-you are a very valuable asset to us.

Again, I totally agree with you here too. No way would they pay a couple million for a story without proof. No argument there. But my example was just that - an example. Another one, like Dutch said, is how much people were willing to pay for the "last photo". Any "new" or "post June 25" photos (with proof they were taken since the date of course) would be worth an absolute goldmine. But you are absolutely right when you say any crackpot could turn up and claim whatever they want. I could walk into the newspaper office right now, and tell them I know MJ is alive and he is hiding out in Pennsylvania on a horse farm - they would look at me like I had 3 heads! (Unless they too, were a member of this forum, LOL!!!) I don't think you are being too optimistic at all - on the contrary. You have very rational answers and reasoning, and it is so refreshing, because of course, like I said, I expected the believer's reasoning to be things like "I just KNOW he is alive", hehe. Our discussions are soooo thought provoking, I love it! I will PM you the photos after I finish replying in this thread

Truth_or_Dare wrote:I meant the cars going past the start line bus while it is still in front of the house. In the tourist video you can clearly see that, yet in the hollywood tv one you don't. And if you calculate the time ( how many seconds the cars start to pass them after they stopped in from of the house) it doesn't add either.
The guy with the camera running: it should be the same event shot by 2 cameras at the same time only from different angles. When the guy in the hollywood tv runs you can clearly see that the street is clear, at least in the first few metters. The star line bus, if it's there it's not as close to the ambulance and to the gates as it appears to be in the toursit video. And if was a different guy in the toursit video that we saw, different form the one who shot in the hollywood tv video, why should all see the guy who shot in the htv video, right? And we only see one cameraman running.
Remember this should be the same event, at the same time, shot by 2 different people from differnt angles!
Too many things don't fit, don't go together. Even one thing is enought for me that these we shot more than once and with no attention to details!

Yep. That's what I mean about the guy who runs past in the starline footage. If it is the hollywood cameraman, we should be able to see in his footage, the starline bus as he runs past it. But we don't - we see him get to about the black car where red and yellow shirts are (which is in front of the starline bus) and then the footage cuts off. I don't know - it's so confusing! I am not sure about the diffences in how close the starline bus is to the ambulance, but I do think when they first pulled up they may have got close to have a good look, and then when the ambulance was backing out, they had to back up so it had room to get out the driveway. I'm not sure though. I wish I could go to Carolwood Drive myself, to have a look at the street, so I could see in person how wide it is, and get an idea of all the positioning of the cars/ambulance/fire truck/bus etc. It's frustrating living in Australia sometimes!

Dutch wrote:I'm a non-believer when reasoning that if MJ hoaxed his death and plans a comeback, he'll be chewed up and spit out by most people. Globally hardcore MJ fans are a minority and they would defend MJ until eternity, however the majority of people (with in the lead those working for the tabloids) would be happy to trash and harass MJ for the rest of his life should he pop up among the living again. This is no rocket science....anyone with half a brain is capable of figuring that out. He would not have a single quiet minute anymore without having to explain why. Also, the number of people involved is too big and the more people are being let in on a secret, the more chances someone will break the silence in return for a huge amount of money. Have in mind what they paid for the image of a dead MJ....they would pay at least tenfold of that for an image which would show definite proof MJ is still alive as it would be the scoop of the century.

Totally agreewith everything you said there. I am open to the possibility of him still being alive (heck, that's why I spend hours a day on here, LOL!) but I just cannot fathom that he is going to make a "comeback". For the reasons you posted above. Wasn't that was TII was all about anyway? His big comeback? No, MJ was one smart dude. I don't think he would put himself out there in the line of fire, so to speak, by coming "back from the dead" and having every newspaper/magazine/website dogging on him, you know? He had enough of that the first time around.

Dutch wrote:I'm a believer when looking at all the inconsistencies, the delays, the major fk ups:

- law enforcement missing it totally. They have a dead person and the LAPD does not seal the place where an eventual homicide took place? CM, the last person to be seen with a live MJ, disappears shortly after news was given to the world MJ died. CM admits he has given MJ the propofol which, according to the coroner, caused MJ's death. Still CM is walking the streets. Why? People have been and are being put behind bars for much less.

This is what I can't work out. It's a homicide. The cause of death was propofol. Administered by CM. Therefore, CM=person who commited homicide, which means he should be in jail!

Dutch wrote:- TMZ shows a series of images of the Neverland raid taken for evidence by cops searching the ranch. How and from where did these images pop up? Certainly TMZ did not have these images before June 25th otherwise they would have put them up long before. So someone has given them to TMZ. Most likely law enforcement or the Jackson family. Why, what's the purpose? Among these images was the one of a letter of some doctor with some lines in bold (one of them "This is it"). Which cop would take an image under such an angle? Imho this image is manufactured and deliberately added to the series. Why? To make people believe MJ was on prescription meds for years already (so it would close the case easier in a later stage)?

I wasn't aware of this. The only one I saw was the bloody shirt in the closet - was this part of the TMZ series? I will have to look into this one

Dutch wrote:- odd behavior of the prime suspect (in the public eye) of MJ's death.....CM. Who in his right mind would post a clip to Youtube while being such a big player in such high profile case?

What was stranger was that he was thanking everyone for their support. Who is supporting him??? Everyone thinks he killed MJ!


MJmylife90 wrote:
hi jess,
it seems that your thoughts are practically the same as i am...
i have to admit that i wasn't really into michael before this but still have his song played on my itunes...but never into him..suddenly after his death,i felt half of my world has vanished!! seriously i dunno why... i never listen to all his songs and never a fan indeed!! but this whole keep bigger and bigger... after that, i started to listen to his songs (now i have almost 70 songs in my itunes! lol), his vids, his tour and even his speech! and i've got to say that he's a really a genius and well-educated person..!!the way he express his thoughts in so many different ways really catch my attention! the way he stood up against political, media, and government really takes up a strong courage..i respect and idolized him because of that..the way he presented his speech during public lecture in oxford, i can see how far that man is thinking about the future and he's not a shallow man who thinks the benefit that produce in the short terms...he's take it for the long one..now, i must admit that i really regret for not open my eyes to see the precious diamond in the world...and i don't even deserve to called myself a fan..but i really love you michael..! i'm so sorry...this guilt will never be gone..

Hi MJmylife90! I feel incredible guilt too, for not seeing what was right there, until now. But we are still fans! We might be "new" fans, but we are fans all the same. And that puts us in such a special group of people. Isn't it strange the impact he has had on us, without us even realising - until he died/"died". My life has been changed forever and I will never be the same. In a good way!

MJmylife90 wrote:as for non-believers and believers, i must say that i'm in the middle right now...it's not that i believe he is dead nor alive but i really don't know...i'm still looking for the answer until now..somehow i've got a hunch to discover the hoax theory..i found so many things that really open my eyes! thanks to you guys!! you did a great job on revealing this...but that doesn't mean my believes of his death are gone...like i said before,i'm still looking for the answer until now..please don't make a bad comments on me..i just expressing my thoughts..please don't hate me! i hope we can all team up together and discover the truth...

KEEP THE FAITH,SOON THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL
L.O.V.E

I am like you too, I must admit. While I believe he is dead (well most of me does anyway) there is a part of me that wonders "what if it's true? what if the hoax is true?". I would LOVE for it to be true, so like you, I am searching, and that's why I'm here. I am totally open to the possibility of him being alive. For sure. I'm not going to be like "he's dead and that's that". That's why I stick around, to uncover new things, to keep searching for the proof that will make me go, ok, I now believe Welcome to the forum btw!
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by Dutch on Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:22 am

@Jess:

Here's a link to the series of pictures of the Neverland raid: http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/neverland_ranch_raid_pictures

For whatever reason the picture of the letter has been removed from above series and planted in the following series (at number 28)
http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46756

In many images it is ultimately clear that the location/position of many items has been staged in order to plant some idea about MJ in the heads of judge/jury/audience, either at the time back in 2005 or now after 06-25.

Anyway.....publishing these images has been done with a reason and I certainly would like to know who leaked these images to the media (TMZ in this case) after 06-25. I'm sure TMZ did not have these images prior to this date.

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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:02 am

Thanks for that Dutch! Very interesting indeed.

The Neverland pics...that wasn't how they found the place when they walked in was it? They have gone through all his stuff and got it all out? It just looks so... messy!

I agree that surely if TMZ had the images when they were first taken, surely they would have published them before now. So how have they obtained them now..

And the plot thickens... Once more
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by MJmylife90 on Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:43 am

~jess~

thank you for replying..your message really gives me strength to continue lovin for michael and continue to find this pieces together...i really need that right now..after the hoax and everything it weakens me and frustrated all the time...again thanks for a great motivation!! that makes us a special fans of michael! I love you I love you I love you
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Re: Questions for non-believers!!!

Post by jess.loves.mj on Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:06 am

MJmylife90 wrote:~jess~

thank you for replying..your message really gives me strength to continue lovin for michael and continue to find this pieces together...i really need that right now..after the hoax and everything it weakens me and frustrated all the time...again thanks for a great motivation!! that makes us a special fans of michael!

You're welcome! That's why I love this site - we are all here for a common purpose, and we are all in the same boat when it comes to Michael - and how much we love him, whether we're new fans, or long long time fans. It's like a little family and it's great to be among like-minded people
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