Corpse Bride

by yspadda Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:35 pm

I hope this was not mentioned before.

Thinking about the symbols Michael used in 'This is it', I decided to followed the black-widow spider to see where it would take me. It led me, between others, to the animation movie 'Corpse Bride'.
Coincidence ? - at least four of the symbols Michael used on stage are in the movie:
the butterflies, the black widow, the dead bride and groom, and....
Kenny Ortega told, very recently, that Michael wanted to have Victoria Falls behind him on stage, and I wondered why Victoria falls and not Niagara falls for example. The bride's name is Victoria.

As everyone knows, the hero of 'Corpse Bride', Victor, spend some time in the land of the Dead, before getting back home, alive.
There are some funny things in the movie, like Victor telling to the dog to "play dead", or the need to "follow the plan"...
Interestingly the reason of Victoria's wedding to Victor is because her family is broke...

More interesting, on the wiki page dedicated to Corpse Bride http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpse Bride, there is that part about love :

"The allegorical theme of the two brides, one living and one dead, occurs from ancient times in Christian (especially monastic) spirituality. The first evidence comes from the fourth century. It focuses on the differing meanings of the English word "love", which come out better in Latin. Christian love, or "caritas" (hence the English "charity"), is the willful seeking for the good of the other person in all ways. "Amor", which is the main meaning of the word in modern English, concerns the emotional and passionate attraction to the other person. In the allegory, "caritas" is the living, shy, quiet bride (i.e. "Victoria"), whereas "amor" is the dead, extrovert, flagrant bride (i.e. "Emily"). The lesson is that "amor" by itself is selfish and essentially dead, and can only be redeemed by making way for (and being incorporated into) "caritas", which is the true love for the other.
Maybe the L.O.V.E. is caritas.

So, if all this is not a coincidence, it's probably because 'This is it' is not really a concert, nor a film, but both of them and, most of all, the start to an alternate reality game. So, to the question "when will Michael come back ?", the answer would be : "as soon as we find him !".
If this this it, the believers are the players.

by Harleyblonde Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:02 pm

Sorry but I cannot get my head round this cryptic message/clue stuff. I really think Michael would have had plenty more to think about regarding all aspects of the hoax than to work out all this stuff hoping that we just might catch on??? I also don't go for the numbers or paintings etc, you could read the hoax into more or less anything regarding Michael but I will just concentrate on the things that are more concrete.
I also think that he wanted Victoria falls rather than Niagra is because Michael was well aware of his African roots and was proud of it. The first time he went to African he said it was his roots and it was like going home.
If others want to believe stuff like this then ok but I cannot. Is good that you have posted though for those who do believe this stuff.

by marsheliamorgan Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:04 pm

GOOD post,i hadnt thought of researching the props YOU GO!!!!you need some applauase flower

i dont know how to do that on here tho, LOL

by GirlSaturday Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:38 pm

So, to the question "when will Michael come back ?", the answer would be : "as soon as we find him !".

You definitely bring up a very unique way to look at the way that we are playing this game of tag. Apparently we are IT.

by yspadda Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:50 am

Hello Harleyblonde,

I don't believe in all the theories, sometimes I believe he really died, and most of the time I don't know what to believe.

But the fact is there are so many weird things in this movie and on the CD, that one wonders why. So I'm trying to put pieces together and see what it brings.

If we imagine that Michael faked his death, what he would have done about the hoax depends on the reasons why he did it.
If that was in order to save his life, surely he wouldn't have cared about leaving that kind of clues.
If this was because the whole 'This is it' project is planned as a big reality game, and the death is only a part of it, he would have given clues, and even multiplied the references, to be sure people would understand and follow him.

As regards Victoria falls. Well, when you see a picture of falls, if the name is not written on the picture you don't know where it is. You only see water. What I mean is an african landscape with african people, would have been more effective to bring the african roots than the falls.

Kenny Ortega, said in the interview, that Michael had the idea of the falls a few weeks before he died. I think it was already too late to manage such a big 3D thing, and surely Michael would know it. So there is also the possibility that KO is just giving more clues.
Since the beginning of the case, I think Ortega is acting in a weird way, and sometimes looks really stupid. I don't know him, but I don't think MJ would have worked with such a stupid guy, so he may have a reason to behave like he does.

by Eva R Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:09 am

super! thank you for the post!
But I don't really understand this: When will Michael be back? answer is: as soon as we find him.
You mean we have to find him or something? Corpse Bride Icon_redface

See?

Michael is into the movies!! He uses for the clues a lot of movies! Like smoothcriminal and here Very Happy

I think when he comes back, we will going to see lot of movies directed by Michael Very Happy

by yspadda Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:43 am

Hello Eva,

If it's a game, maybe. The aim of the alternate reality games is generally to find something or to get somewhere. So maybe he is waiting for the fans to find him to come back.
If a big come-back isn't planned, maybe we'll only see his works and movies and we won't know he is the author - though I wonder how he'll manage to work on such projects without being recognized.
But these are mere theories.

by tinkerbell72 Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:57 am

another thing that goes in this direction are the flying puppets of dead husband and wife that had to flow over the audience during thriller ...
sorry for my english ... hope you can understand...

by Kirsche Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:54 pm

I understand what you say. But I can't remember on a scene with this puppets flying around in the movie...

by mjgirl86 Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:01 pm

yspadda wrote:Hello Eva,

If it's a game, maybe. The aim of the alternate reality games is generally to find something or to get somewhere. So maybe he is waiting for the fans to find him to come back.
If a big come-back isn't planned, maybe we'll only see his works and movies and we won't know he is the author - though I wonder how he'll manage to work on such projects without being recognized.
But these are mere theories.

First of all, great thread!! Secondly, great theories just now... maybe he is waiting for the fans to find him, to come back.... hmm.. but wow, I never thought about the Corpse Bride theory. Good job!! *Applause*

by yspadda Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:21 pm

The bride and groom puppets were floating over the scene - a bit like flags - in the Thriller sequence, I think.

by tinkerbell72 Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:23 pm

yspadda wrote:The bride and groom puppets were floating over the scene - a bit like flags - in the Thriller sequence, I think.

yes exactly ... i saw the fim three times and i'm sure of this ...

by rpvee Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:23 pm

So because of a name similarity and a spider, you're convinced that Michael would really hide the fact that he is still alive (a fact I'd think he would want to keep completely hidden anyways) inside of a children's claymation cartoon?

by neverlandprincess Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:36 pm

GirlSaturday wrote:So, to the question "when will Michael come back ?", the answer would be : "as soon as we find him !".

You definitely bring up a very unique way to look at the way that we are playing this game of tag. Apparently we are IT.

Hmmm we are "it"-interesting. LOL kinda funny-too much legal stuff for that to be real -but it sure would be funny huh? Maybe not really but it is a less stressful thought Corpse Bride Lol

by MJ_Fan_For_40_yrs Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:08 pm

:~ Knock Out ~:

:~*GENIUS*~:

(...boom Boom POW...!)

:~YooHoo.... ~:

Corpse Bride Herz

by neverlandprincess Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:27 pm

@mj-fan-for-40-years...hello I thought you had left.

by yspadda Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:57 pm

rpvee wrote:So because of a name similarity and a spider, you're convinced that Michael would really hide the fact that he is still alive (a fact I'd think he would want to keep completely hidden anyways) inside of a children's claymation cartoon?

My understanding of Michael Jackson is that he loved symbols and enjoyed to use them.
The AEG guy stated that This is it, the show, was "all Michael's vision", so if we imagine there is a death hoaxed we can also imagine there could be a message in the last show. For that reason I decided to have a look at the various elements used on stage.
We can think Michael brought a black widow spider on stage for no reason, but we can also imagine there was a reason, so I just made a search about the spider, and it led me to Corpse Bride, between others. I checked the film and found not only the spider but others symbols too, like the butterflies. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not.
The fact is that all the elements tend to lead to the theme of death and rebirth - hoaxed death like in Gilda, or travel to the underworld like in Corpse Bride. The butterfly itself is a symbol for death and rebirth.
No matter where the symbols are, what counts is their meaning.
You shouldn't despise children's cartoons and books, because most of the time they have a deeper meaning and symbolism than people usually think. And, most of all, you shouldn't despise them because Michael himself didn't, and that's the reason why he wouldn't mind to use them.

What is great with symbols is they are visible, but they are not understood by the mass. It's the perfect medium to deliver a message only to those who want to see.

So, to reply to your question, I'm not convinced he did it but I think it's possible - if he faked his death (of which I'm not convinced either, but think possible too).

by neverlandprincess Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:01 pm

yspadda wrote:
rpvee wrote:So because of a name similarity and a spider, you're convinced that Michael would really hide the fact that he is still alive (a fact I'd think he would want to keep completely hidden anyways) inside of a children's claymation cartoon?
My understanding of Michael Jackson is that he loved symbols and enjoyed to use them.
The AEG guy stated that This is it, the show, was "all Michael's vision", so if we imagine there is a death hoax we can also imagine there could be a message in the last show. For that reason I decided to have a look at the various elements used on stage.
We can think Michael brought a black widow spider on stage for no reason, but we can also imagine there was a reason, so I just made a search about the spider, and it led me to Corpse Bride, between others. I checked the film and found not only the spider but others symbols too, like the butterflies. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not.
The fact is that all the elements tend to lead to the theme of death and rebirth - hoaxed death like in Gilda, or travel to the underworld like in Corpse Bride. The butterfly itself is a symbol of death and rebirth.
No matter where the symbols are, what counts is the meaning.
You shouldn't despise children's cartoons and books, because most of the time they have a deeper meaning and symbolism than people usually think. And most of all you shouldn't despise them because Michael himself didn't, and that's the reason why he wouldn't mind to use them.

What is great with symbols is they are visible, but they are not understood by the mass. It's the perfect medium to deliver a message only to those who want to see.
So, to reply to your question, I'm not convinced he did it but I think it's possible - if he faked his death (of which I'm not convinced either, but think possible too).

You have been very open minded in your endevour here -applause for you Corpse Bride Icon_cheers

by marsheliamorgan Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:23 pm

if i remember right was it KO who mentioned the flying bride and groom corpses in the audience during the thriller number?i think but cant really remember WHO it was that was tellin us about them

by neverlandprincess Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:27 pm

KO was tellin us about them and they demonstrated showing the dead kites-lol

by LiberianGirl Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:02 pm

When I first saw the dead bried and groom I thought about the film "Beetlejuice" and "Corpse Bride". They're both Tim Burton films. And remember in the corpse bride, when the groom accidentally put the ring on the dead bride's finger, she turned from skeleton to a body. So she comes to life! So I think this can be a message!

And do you guys remember the part where the dead people fall from the sky and find their bodies on earth (stage) and become alive on Thriller? That's a part of RESURRECTION again.

And what about Napoleon in Thriler again? Do you know about Tilsit and when it is made? On 25th of June two emperors meet and they sign Tilsit on 7th of July! What you think about this? Wink

by Kirsche Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:30 am

WOW!!

by rpvee Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:55 pm

Strange coincidence. But MJ would not be so crazy as to hide clues to the fact he's still alive in a concert he could have no possible way of knowing would be turned into a film after he "died", and even more, hide these clues in a children's animated cartoon released many years prior.

Ridiculous and stupid, MJ is dead.

by Kirsche Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:56 pm

So, when you think he's dead, why are you here?

by shasta2001 Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:03 pm

Oops, wrong forum.

by rpvee Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:28 pm

Kirsche wrote:So, when you think he's dead, why are you here?

Because someone needs to represent the other side of the theories (a.k.a logic, but we won't go there).

by tinkerbell72 Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:24 pm

logic... is that logic that reharsals are filmed like that? HQ? filming the making of the stage in HQ? is that logic? using pro tools to work the sound while filming rehaersals is logic?
please ... don't talk about logic
p.s. if you don't know what pro tools is go and look for it this will take you busy and far from here
wish i could speak my language ...

by Kirsche Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:59 am

Okay, so let's be nice again. It's not worthing to be angry about him/her, whatever... back to topic!

by paulinah79 Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:51 pm

oh, good post.. I never thought about fallowing the spiders... I haven't had time to do anything, but I am trying to see some of the posts here.

by Léa Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:30 pm

GirlSaturday wrote:So, to the question "when will Michael come back ?", the answer would be : "as soon as we find him !".

You definitely bring up a very unique way to look at the way that we are playing this game of tag. Apparently we are IT.

Hello, I'm sorry I'm new...
I also think MJ is still alive but... Well, to be honest if he did reappear (I'm sorry, I hope you can understand me, but I'm french and sometimes my english is bad) I would be the happiest person in the earth. I mean I would be so glad and admirative of him. But there were also suicides of fans and I'm sure if he comes back, some people will be mad at him because his "death" caused soooo much pain.

Am I clear ? I think if he comes back he will face so much more hate than even before. Not from me, not from, you or the fans, his family... But I'm pretty sure there will be so mean people.

I want to believe he's still alive and most of the time I do, but I also do nee a lot to read all the theories so as to keep the faith !

by GirlSaturday Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:52 pm

Welcome.

Léa wrote:
GirlSaturday wrote:So, to the question "when will Michael come back ?", the answer would be : "as soon as we find him !".

You definitely bring up a very unique way to look at the way that we are playing this game of tag. Apparently we are IT.

Hello, I'm sorry I'm new...
I also think MJ is still alive but... Well, to be honest if he did reappear (I'm sorry, I hope you can understand me, but I'm french and sometimes my english is bad) I would be the happiest person in the earth. I mean I would be so glad and admirative of him. But there were also suicides of fans and I'm sure if he comes back, some people will be mad at him because his "death" caused soooo much pain.

Am I clear ? I think if he comes back he will face so much more hate than even before. Not from me, not from, you or the fans, his family... But I'm pretty sure there will be so mean people.

I want to believe he's still alive and most of the time I do, but I also do nee a lot to read all the theories so as to keep the faith !

by Léa Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:55 pm

thanks !

So do you agree with me ? Or do you have another opinion ?

by rag doll Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:35 am

I

Tim Burton´s movies!
All his creations unite truth & magic in a unique way.
And no one brings the dark humor to such an aesthetic perfection like he does imho.

To be honest, when I was sitting in the cinema, watching the "Thriller" scenes of "THIS IS IT", I was thinking about "Corpse Bride" for a second too... Corpse Bride Icon_wink

Thank you for the contrapositive meanings of L.O.V.E., this is a very interesting aspect.

Btw:
Victor = Victory?

Just a thought...

by CantStopLovingU Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:28 am

rpvee wrote:Strange coincidence. But MJ would not be so crazy as to hide clues to the fact he's still alive in a concert he could have no possible way of knowing would be turned into a film after he "died", and even more, hide these clues in a children's animated cartoon released many years prior.

Ridiculous and stupid, MJ is dead.

Please do not use the term stupid here.

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