TII the concerts -vs- TII the movie.

Hey guys

Once again, sorry for the long post!

So I had some thoughts today after watching the movie last night about the TII concerts and the TII movie. I have been thinking for a long time that the concerts were never meant to take place and that TII was meant to be a movie the whole time, but I couldn't find a link between them so decided to wait until after the movie to post. I also just want to point out that I don't believe in the movie theory, ie: the hoax is for a movie, just that TII the concerts were never mean to happen and a movie was.

Now, at the beginning of the movie there is a section where the dancers are been interviewed about how and why they came about auditioning. The movie was billed as a candid documentary and there were parts within the dancers speeches which seemed very scripted to me. There seemed to be a lot of crying on cue and the answers so generic. It was the typical "Michael inspired me to dance" and "I grew up on his music", and to me that is what most people in that situation would say. There didn't seem to be any personality shining through. However, you can make your own minds up about this. I also started to think: why would the dancers need to be interviewed if this was compiled from rehearsal footage? The point of filming things like this is so the performer and the dancers, musicians, stage crew etc.. can look back on it and see what needs to tweaked and improved. There were also interviews with various other people throughout the movie. Granted, these could have been filmed after the movie was announced, but lets say for arguments sake that they weren't.

Ok, so now onto why I think this. Prior to March when TII was announced, Michael hadn't been in the spotlight in a good light for a very long time. After the 2005 trial he moved around a lot and had the privacy that he craved. Now in order to pull of the greatest hoax that ever was he would have needed the publicity. So it was announced a final set of concerts would take place that would promise to shock the world and show Michael for the true legend he is. Now, it's a given tickets were going to sell out fast. Michael Jackson = hot property and billed along side the fact that this was his last ever performances you have yourself a winning formula. You're once again back on top and you know the story is going to be massively followed because of the fact that you're 50 and people will be saying "you can't pull this off, you're too old". Lets not forget that 2 months prior to TII the concerts been announced, there was a story published stating that Michael had 6 months left to live. People by nature are curious and will want to know what kind of health he was in. Now to me, there is no way these two things are a coincidence.

It is my belief that Michael leaked the story about him only having 6 months left to live himself via Ian Halperin. People would never have suspected Michael of giving this information to someone who was vile to him in the past, which is perfect! He is a clever man and knows how to attract attention and publicity. It has been confirmed that the stories about the elephant mans bones and the chamber photos were leaked by Michael himself. Mystery and controversy sells and equals more press and as much as Michael hated them, he needed them for this. If a concert hadn't been announced and the "death" took place on June 25th as planned, people wouldn't have been as shocked as there were. However, because reports were leaked that Michael was going to the rehearsals and was fit and healthy, then he needed to be spoon fed and if people weren't questioning this there wouldn't be a hoax for us to investigate. Because we haven't seen the "real" Michael for so long, and by that I mean without the surgical masks and the glasses, there would be no way for us to tell what kind of shape he was in and if he was on any drugs or not. IMO, most, if not all of us, would have accepted that he died of a drugs overdose on June 25th. You see how a simple thing like announcing a final concert plants the seeds of doubt in our minds?

Now, it's no secret that Michael hated to tour. He said this in the home movies videos and for someone who hasn't toured in about 15 years, it is a massive strain on the body. I can't speak for Michael because I don't know him personally but over the last few years I wouldn't imagine he had much time to spend on training his voice and keeping up with the dance routines. He had more important things to attend to and bringing his children up. Now, those of you who have seen the movie will know he kept saying that he had to protect his voice and that the others ie: the back up singers, could do it but he couldn't. I believe Michael knew he wouldn't be able to pull off 50 concerts in London and this is why it was never meant to go ahead. I'm not been rude to Michael so please don't think I am. I am a singer myself and I know if you leave your voice for a year without any training, it massively takes it's toll on you and takes a lot of time to get back up to scratch. You would need much longer than 3 months to get it back on track again.

Now, whatever the reason for the hoax, I believe Michael needed the movie to be able to address his fans and clear up any issues. The tickets to the concerts were so expensive, I believe they were about £50, and they wouldn't have been accessible to everyone. However, as a movie ticket isn't as expensive more people will be able to participate and would probably be more willing. Whether the meaning behind the hoax be about the environment, the press, or whatever it would probably reach people on a much larger scale. I briefly mentioned the prices for the tickets for the TII concerts above and I want to come back to these. People were out of pocket and after buying them, and as such AEG Live have promised people can have their money back or have a special memorable ticket. Now before the "death", most people would have said money, but after I believe more have said they want the ticket as something to remember Michael by. Now there will always be those who want their money back and AEG will have anticipated it, so this is where I think things get clever. AEG knew that their insurance wouldn't cover the loss of any tickets that they had to reimburse, as at first the "death" was thought of as an overdose. Now lets go back to the fact that a ticket cost about £50 and around 1 million people were meant to see the concerts over the 50 dates. This would mean a profit of £50m had been made. Sony bought the rights to TII for £60m and this went to AEG. Now assuming that all 1 million people didn't want their money back (which I doubt they did) once AEG had paid everyone who wanted it back out, it will still have left them with a profit and all debt is repaid, thanks to Sony! Could this have been part of Michael's plan to get them so out of pocket? Maybe I am way off track here but to me it makes sense! I believe AEG would still get a profit cut from the movie, along with Sony, so even after all this they are still making money out of it! Genius

I just also want to add as a final part that there is no way for us to tell when the footage for TII was shot. For all we know it could have been from last year when no-one was paying attention to Michael and he could go places undetected. All he would then need to do is show up for the odd shot and make sure that people saw him going to the Staples Centre and as per some YT videos, could hear him performing and he is home free. People just assume it was done then!

Anyway I would love to know what you all think.

Rach xoxo

Wow Rach!! Thats kinda scary. How slimy some executives can be.

But if the concerts were never meant to haopoen then why were tickets for sale? Sorry but Im a bit confused.//

Great Post Rach! I agree that a movie would reach the masses much easier and would be an ideal medium to get a message across. I also agree with you about MJ leaking the six months to live to Ian. MJ has long ago learned to play the media game and he knows what will sell and what will get pcked up on. As much as he told us not to believe the tabloids, he knew that his fans read them. All it takes is a glance. Your right what better way to plant the seeds of doubt than a good old juicy story of the tragic singer who has six months to live.

Question-do you mean that MJ never intended to go on with the concerts and the movie was what HE planned all along? That he lead them to believe he would, but all he wanted to do was a movie? We have seen that he likes to have things recorded for his own archives, so the request of recording the rehearsals would not be far fetched. The movie also give AEG the money they invested back and no one loses out since the concerts never took place.

I enjoyed your post Rach, very well thought! I just learned (silly me) that the DVD profits will go to Sony and thank God for that. Need I say I wont be buying it?

@ The Jacksonologist - sorry for the confusion! The tickets HAD to go on sale because if they didn't people would have wondered why. However, any money lost would have been recovered by AEG when Sony bought the rights to the movie

@ nlb - Yes I do think it was a movie all along. When I was watching it last night I didn't get the feeling it was JUST rehearsal footage. It feels bigger than that. You will get a sense of what I mean when you watch it. It is made in a way that tries to get you to think that it's shaky footage when it's very high quality.

@ MJFoReVeRandAlways - Sony were always going to get a profit because they own the rights to it. However, 90% will go to Michael's estate so Sony won't earn a massive amount.

Ok now I´m confused again I thought I read in another thread that MJ´s kids get 90% of the movie, but the DVD rights go to Sony, ALL of the profits..

@Rach Thanks, I gotcha now. I thought that's what you were saying, just wanted to make sure. That's what happens when you try to read when kids are chattering in your ear.

MJFoReVeRandAlways wrote:Ok now I´m confused again I thought I read in another thread that MJ´s kids get 90% of the movie, but the DVD rights go to Sony, ALL of the profits..

I may have got that wrong so I apologise if so!

I'm not too sure on the ins and outs of the footage and the rights etc etc.

@Rach

I apoligize too, because I´m not sure either that it IS like that. I´ll see if I can find the thread where I read it.

I don't know...after seeing the move I DO think he was planning the concert. I mean it looked like he had some HOT ideas for it (the new Billie Jean costume we did not see,the hot THriller entry /exit)) NOW I do agree that it seems like an authentic documentary that had been planned from the get go. I thought the same about the dancers-that one guy did kinda get to me that was crying,but it seemed real similiar to the contestans on American Idol,when they speak during tryouts.

@Rach

This is the thread I was referring to. If you scroll down, GirlSaturday says that Sony gains from the movie not being a hit because the movie profits go to the kids, and Sony will earn more once those who never saw the movie buy the DVD, which Sony owns the rights to.

@Rach I agree with a lot of what you've said. I have also said in some of my previous posts that I thought that the concerts were never going to happen for the reasons you listed.

I think it was going to be a movie all along. What I think though, is that movie was going to be a complete one --- like a full-on dress rehearsal where MJ was giving it his all. In preparation for the concerts there would have had to be a complete dress rehearsal before the concerts were to begin, this was what the movie was meant to be IMO, the film were meant to see. There would have been one reason or another that the concerts were not going to be "pulled-off". Remember MJ said that he wanted to reach millions of fans, that would not have possible with just the concerts.

That's why a lot of "documentary" doesn't make sense in the fact there seems to be a lot of planned footage, if you know whatI mean -- as if it was put together specifically for a movie.

Something happened before the movie was going to be shot the way MJ planned it -- that's why we are only seeing the snippets of various rehearsals pieced together. I don't think that this would have been the final product that MJ would have wanted to present to the world.

All of this is my personal opinion and theory. I think the "death" wasn't necessarily planned on; something threw a wrench into what was supposed to originally happen.

Thanks Rach..!!!

I always had the feeling the concerts weren't going to happen. Not just because I started analyzing everything after he 'died' but even at the announcement back in march I felt this way. It felt totally surreal when I heard he was going to do a bunch of concerts. It was so out of the blue. Knowing what I know now I feel that the movie is somewhat of a compromise between Michael and AEG. I don't know if Michael backed out in the beginning or after he found out there were going to be 50 or it was planned all along. I just don't think Michael had much to do with the movie to be honest ..To me it seems it was just something he had to agree to so he wouldn't be tied to AEG in any legal way.

I'm still confused about him and Sony-why was he still with them? Back when his fallout happened with them he said he was leaving after one more album that was a "compilation" since then "number ones", "the ultimate" and "visionary (high priced singles collection box) has come out. He was still there why?

Hello Rach,

I think Michael is so smart and daring that anything is possible. Genius, as you said.

The key-moment that made me reach to the same conclusion as you is the moment where the whole team and dancers were on stage holding each other's hand. At first I thought the circle was after Michael died, but then we saw Michael and he delivered his speech, and he thanked them all. It gave me the feeling that it was the end of a something. But the end of what ? If the concerts were meant to happen they had still had rehearsals and the concerts to do. So, I think the reason Michael was so emotional and asking them for understanding and support was because there would be no concert at all. And that was a double understanding, he was speaking to the dancers, and to the fans as well.
---
Another thing I read today, and that works better with the hoax theory than with the project of concerts, is something Kenny Ortega told to a french newspaper (Figaro). He said that during the rehearsals Michael came to him and told : «Kenny, we can do it, we must do it. We musn't be afraid". And then KO concluded that those words helped him go through the pain for his loss.
It's strange, because in the interview we don't understand what Kenny is talking about and why that phrase was so important to him - except if we think of the hoax.

I didn't expect much from the movie, so I was amazed. It's Xmas in October !
Long live the King !

Hello Rach,

I think Michael is so smart and daring that anything is possible. Genius, as you said.

The key-moment that made me reach to the same conclusion as you is the moment where the whole team and dancers were on stage holding each other's hand. At first I thought the circle was after Michael died, but then we saw Michael and he delivered his speech, and he thanked them all. It gave me the feeling that it was the end of a something. But the end of what ? If the concerts were meant to happen they had still had rehearsals and the concerts to do. So, I think the reason Michael was so emotional and asking them for understanding and support was because there would be no concert at all. And that was a double understanding, he was speaking to the dancers, and to the fans as well.
---
Another thing I read today, and that works better with the hoax theory than with the project of concerts, is something Kenny Ortega told to a french newspaper (Figaro). He said that during the rehearsals Michael came to him and told : «Kenny, we can do it, we must do it. We musn't be afraid". And then KO concluded that those words helped him go through the pain for his loss.
It's strange, because in the interview we don't understand what Kenny is talking about and why that phrase was so important to him - except if we think of the hoax.

I didn't expect much from the movie, so I was amazed. It's Xmas in October !
Long live the King !

Sorry for the double post. I don't know how to delete it.

Btw, have you noticed that the first song in the movie is 'Wanna be startin' something' !

Gm wrote: I haven't seen the movie yet but have been following the posts intensively. It is probably nothing but there's been a lot of discussion about Michaels comment on "only having 4 years to save the earth" and how it sounds as though he's referring to the December 2012 "end of the world theory" (though this could just as easily have had another similar meaning). Now December 2012 was roughly 4 years ahead of the May/June rehearsal time, yet not quite! I guess, if that was indeed the direction of the comment, the four years statement could be taken as an indication that the conversation took place last year (which would make it more accurately four years); earlier than we have been led to believe. Then again, Michael may have just meant it as 'roughly' 4 years.
As I said though this is probably nothing, just me reaching a bit too much!

You're not reading too much into this at all! In fact, you're the 2nd person who said this to me today!

I think it very well could be an indiction that the footage was filmed in 2008 and not this year. As I said, no-one knows what Michael was up to because before the O2 in March he wasn't in the public eye.

This could be a major indication that the footage was filmed last year, BEFORE the concerts were even announced

Harleyblonde wrote:@Rach, I go along with everything you said and you have explained in a more direct way what I have had in the back of my mind for a while.
BUT
Apart from the part where you say you think the footage was filmed last year, I do agree Mj had been quiet and it would have been logical but surely this would mean all the dancers are in on the hoax and you thought on a previous thread (and I agreed with) that there would not be many in on the hoax so don't you think the dancers would put two and two together and say "hey wait a minute-we were hired and filmed this movie last year and not weeks prior to Michaels death".
I don't wish to knock your theory as I really enjoyed reading it but we have to be play at being "detectives" and consider all the flaws and loopholes.

I don't think you're knocking it at all and I agree, we need to look at everything and question everything. It's the only way to get to the truth

I have a feeling that all this footage wasn't made in the small time frame that it was specified as. There were parts in the movie where Michael was on stage on his own and all you could hear were peoples voices in the background. That could have been edited. I'm not saying it was by any means, but if this was filmed over a longer period of time there are ways and means of editing these things.

I could of course be wrong on all levels, but what keeps bringing me back to this thought is that people kept speculating that Michael didn't turn up for the auditions until 2 weeks before the "death". I believe thast quote came from various people who were involved with TII and a man who owned a dance studio which Michael had rehearsed in. He said that Michael had no wanting or energy to do the concerts.

Now IMO, that leaves an almost impossible amount of time to get 100 hours of perfect footage ready for the movie.

@Rach, I´m agree with your every single word.
Actually, I was very sure that the concerts were never ment to happen before I saw the movie. Seeing the movie yesterday I was totally sure, no doubt.

Btw, to find out if it was made in small time or nor we have to investigate MJ´s pants thous black ones, because I saw the pics today and noticed that on every pic he wore black pants the pants were dirty (right shrank) and he wore thouse in most parts in the movie.

Harleyblonde wrote:Ahhh, Thanks for that and as I havn't seen the film I didn't know the dancers were not there all the time so your theory does have credibility and makes perfect sense. Do you think it would explain why MJ looked so different and some think he used doubles and would explain his slight change in weight or do you think it MJ doubles were used?

IMO, all were Michael except for orange pants man who I believe was a double. He sang live on "Wanna Be Starting Something" which was the opening song and it was terrible TBH. It was very breathy and it was almost like he couldn't keep up with the beat. After that the rest of the songs that orange pants man were involved in were all mimmed. He also couldn't dance.

I don't say this to sound rude, but if you compare the footage of orange pants man to the rest of film and Michael, you can see a difference. Michael looked his strongest when he was wearing the GP and doing "Smooth Criminal". In fact have a look at the video below because it shows Michael in 3 outfits, two of them been orange pants and GP. Have a look at the difference in the moves and general conduct

In fact here is "Wanna Be Starting Something". Notice how they do the split screen and watch the differences between the two.

Oh and how funny is orange pants man when he starts smacking the pony?! I will bet my life this isn't Michael.

I am gonna go by myself. My bf works on Saturday so Im gonna go.........I cant take it anymore!! I have to see this movie!!!

I can drool all alone!! Yipee!!!!

@Rach, Thanks for that, I think you have hit the nail on the head and I see what you mean about orange pants MJ- no comparison!

@Rach, I´m agree with your every single word.
Actually, I was very sure that the concerts were never ment to happen before I saw the movie. Seeing the movie yesterday I was totally sure, no doubt.

Btw, to find out if it was made in small time or nor we have to investigate MJ´s pants thous black ones, because I saw the pics today and noticed that on every pic he wore black pants the pants were dirty (right shrank) and he wore thouse in most parts in the movie.

Rach wrote:In fact here is "Wanna Be Starting Something". Notice how they do the split screen and watch the differences between the two.

Oh and how funny is orange pants man when he starts smacking the pony?! I will bet my life this isn't Michael.

I can't comment about the movie because I haven't seen it yet but wow I would've never imagined Michael doing that, it just looks weird for some reason. No offence to anyone, but so far I think he's not Michael.

Although I haven't seen the film yet, hearing of these 'unnatural' sounding interviews definitely cements my belief that these concerts were never going to happen.
The one thought that keeps on worrying me, however, is there may always have been the intention to release a DVD which could (I pray to lord doesn't!) explain why interviews with dancers etc. were recorded the way they were. There have been DVDs released from Michael's previous tours so I imagine that if the concerts had gone ahead they may have been recorded and a DVD released shortly after for all the fans who were unable to go or those that did and wanted a special recording (especially considering they were going to be absolutely phenomenal and had also been said to be the final ones). There then may be a possibility that, with a DVD in mind, interviews were recorded to be included later as extra footage (as a DVD may have had some additional behind the scenes bits). Because I haven't seen the film for myself yet I really can't say. I truely hate speaking this thought out loud and I pray you guys who have seen the movie and how unnatural these interviews sound can immediately debunk this! This is generally definitely not my belief but the smallest part of me can't help worrying. I think there are enough clues in the film (lack of memorial/R.I.P, Smooth criminal short films, '4 years' comment, end of credits message etc.) to strongly believe otherwise though!

@Gm-that is not a bad sounding theory. That i common sense. "It did so look like it was filmed for more than his personal library and KO may be a good producer but he couldnt make up tthose interviews with the dancers and the dance instructor-it really looked like it was a behind the scenes look. BUT for some reason Randy Phillips says the whole thing was an accident-like they had to talk MJ into filming it-makes no sene b/c MJ pretty much documented every thing.