Shikster's No Defibrulator thread

[bec]

From the old forum, Shikster brought up the no defib argument. Not only was there no defib present at MJs house, despite the fact that Dr. Murray is a cardiologist, but also Dr. Murray refused to allow EMTs to defib MJ at the scene or on the way to the hospital.

Why would this be? If it truly was MJ's dead body laying there and Dr. Murray indeed believed he was facing manslaughter charges, what justification is there for not zapping that corpse into next week?

This simple fact alone makes me believe either we have MJ in make up playing dead on the bed, or an extremely realitstic Hollywood style dummy that Dr. Murray was afraid would catch on fire or melt.

[Guest]

Very true!

[Give.In.To.Me]

I know I would not want to be shocked while still alive, same with MJ I assume

[Guest]

LMAO. This is getting better by the minute

[Banessa]

I know I would not want to be shocked while still alive, same with MJ I assume

lmao

In all seriousness though what kind of a Doctor is Murray if he is a cardiologist yet he dos not have a defibrillator on hand! He is not only a Horrible Doctor but a bad actor as well

[EarthAngel90]

Wow , Murray wasn't thinking of have Defibrulator ... I wonder why people didn't ask this when Living the House with Michael ... to have someone in case one of his personal Staff has unknown heartattack.

[bec]

Now I know the skeptic's argument for not defibing is because Dr. Murray kept saying MJ had a weak pulse.

Weak pulse=alive. You cannot zap someone with a weak pulse, you will kill them.

The skeptic will say Dr. Murray wanted to claim the weak pulse all the way to the ER so he would be admitted "alive".

But do you seriously think that Dr. Murray or anyone else could convince two EMTs that a long dead body is a live man with a weak pulse that somehow only Dr. Murray can feel?

And really, doesn't Dr. Murray just have to somehow get MJ into the ambulance in order for him to be sent to the ER to be pronounced dead there? If they get him to the ambulance, defib the crap out of him all the way to the hospital, they're not going to quit as they pull in the drive, pronounce him DOA and send the cops screaming back to the "crime scene".

So, makes no sense to me for Dr. Murray to not allow the EMTs to defib him on the way to the hospital if he was truly long dead as is being reported.

The question is, if MJ is playing dead, can he deal with one armed CPR and that tube for the respirator down his throat? I mean, we all know one armed CPR isn't going to save your life but is it weak enough to be able to be lived through by someone faking?

Why does this all of a sudden feel like the David Blaine/Chris Angel magic act?

[Banessa]

"Why does this all of a sudden feel like the David Blaine/Chris Angel magic act??"


Because they are probably in it too! I have a friend who is a paramedic and I asked about the Defibrillator and why wouldn't the medics use it. He claims that the Doctor has higher power over them and can rule out anything the medics would want to do even if it is for the best of the patient! So if Murray told the medics not to use it they wouldn't even if they wanted to going against the Doctor can cause them to lose their jobs!

[bec]

I'm going to research if David Blaine or Chris Angel ever did a resurrection/back from the dead act.

[bec]

Both magicians commonly perform fly and dove resurrections, but I haven't found any record of either performing a human or self resurrection. BUT.

These quotes of David Blaine's are very interesting:

'You've been quoted as saying that Jesus was a magician. Which of his miracles could you recreate ?'
Ed Curtis, Hove
'Returning from the dead.' [Blaine]

and

'What is the greatest magic trick ever performed ?'
Christine McDonald, Salford
'Returning from the dead.' [Blaine]

There is a website and fan site I might check out, see if there's more info on this trick.

[Another.Part.Of.Me]

"Why does this all of a sudden feel like the David Blaine/Chris Angel magic act??"


Because they are probably in it too! I have a friend who is a paramedic and I asked about the Defibrillator and why wouldn't the medics use it. He claims that the Doctor has higher power over them and can rule out anything the medics would want to do even if it is for the best of the patient! So if Murray told the medics not to use it they wouldn't even if they wanted to going against the Doctor can cause them to lose their jobs!

Dr Murray was not registered or licensed in California so he would not have been able to overrule the paramedics because he is not a higher power in the State of California. I asked the same question on MJHD and someone came up with that answer which sounds plausible because he wasn't licensed/registered in california (it needs further confirmation though).

Also the absence of the EKG machine in a room with someone under anesthetic, which doesn't make sense because that machine would sound an alarm if the patient's heart started slowing down.

[Another.Part.Of.Me]

Damn! Scrap that, he is registered to practise in california, sorry, that kills that idea.

[mo2kidzs]

I just don't believe he was doing any drug period! I have listened to many interviews that Michael Jackson has done and the ones from at least starting the year 2000 he always maintained that he didn't like taking western medicine and he eats organic, and used holistic herbs for healing... so it does not make sense for someone who feels that strongly about caring what goes into your body to then turn around and use any harmful drug.
Just my 2 cents:)

[endlessfire]

with a defib. machine there has to be a pulse for it to work. when a heart is fibrilating it means its quivering instead of beating properly. like muscle spasms. it's not actually pumping the blood through the body. so there would have been a need to use the machine. i'm only a nurses assistant and i know that any doctor, cardio. or not, would know that.

[MJ_Fan_For_40_yrs]

You are right, endlessfire!!

[jpresley]

[quote="bec"]From the old forum, Shikster brought up the no defib argument. Not only was there no defib present at MJs house, despite the fact that Dr. Murray is a cardiologist, but also Dr. Murray refused to allow EMTs to defib MJ at the scene or on the way to the hospital.

Why would this be? If it truly was MJ's dead body laying there and Dr. Murray indeed believed he was facing manslaughter charges, what justification is there for not zapping that corpse into next week?

This simple fact alone makes me believe either we have MJ in make up playing dead on the bed, or an extremely realitstic Hollywood style dummy that Dr. Murray was afraid would catch on fire or melt.[/quote]

Okay, that made me laugh! I can just imagine all of the EMT's frantically trying to save a DUMMY!!

[ishealive]

Both magicians commonly perform fly and dove resurrections, but I haven't found any record of either performing a human or self resurrection. BUT.

These quotes of David Blaine's are very interesting:

'You've been quoted as saying that Jesus was a magician. Which of his miracles could you recreate ?'
Ed Curtis, Hove
'Returning from the dead.' [Blaine]

and

'What is the greatest magic trick ever performed ?'
Christine McDonald, Salford
'Returning from the dead.' [Blaine]

There is a website and fan site I might check out, see if there's more info on this trick.

This is brilliant, MJ was suppose to have one of these magicians at his concert. I bet this is all part of "This is it". It's his resurrection comeback!
I put all my money on it that this is all an act!!

[mir26]

with a defib. machine there has to be a pulse for it to work. when a heart is fibrilating it means its quivering instead of beating properly. like muscle spasms. it's not actually pumping the blood through the body. so there would have been a need to use the machine. i'm only a nurses assistant and i know that any doctor, cardio. or not, would know that.

thats not totaly true they used it on my dad too and he was really dead already thats how they got him back,but my dad dident have a pulse at all,but the doctor not having a defib also makes me wonder something is not right,he probally dident need one because MJ dident do drugs,thats what I think lol

[bec]

[quote="jpresley"]

From the old forum, Shikster brought up the no defib argument. Not only was there no defib present at MJs house, despite the fact that Dr. Murray is a cardiologist, but also Dr. Murray refused to allow EMTs to defib MJ at the scene or on the way to the hospital.

Why would this be? If it truly was MJ's dead body laying there and Dr. Murray indeed believed he was facing manslaughter charges, what justification is there for not zapping that corpse into next week?

This simple fact alone makes me believe either we have MJ in make up playing dead on the bed, or an extremely realitstic Hollywood style dummy that Dr. Murray was afraid would catch on fire or melt.[/quote]

Okay, that made me laugh! I can just imagine all of the EMT's frantically trying to save a DUMMY!!

Hey, could be

It explains why no defib (serious about the melting posibility), why Dr. Murray kept interfering, why the EMTs thought something funny was going on, and why they didn't want to take it to the hospital. Also explains why they called the patient "IT" as in "it just looked like a frail, sickly, old man". I really can't believe EMTs would speak so disrespectfully about any of their "clients" appearances, no matter who they are. Also explains the ambulance pic and why the mag bought it... it IS real, but it's a dummy. Explains why the mask doesn't fit right and it looks like MJ from 15 years ago, it's a dummy from 15 years ago. Might even explain the EMTs one armed CPR in the pic, EMT is thinking, "um, ok, we'll play along with this crazy doctor telling us to take either a LONG dead dude or a dummy to the ER, but I'm not going to break a sweat over it either way..." *grumble*

I dunno, I'm torn about 50-50, dummy-MJ in make-up playing dead, that went for the ambulance ride.

[jpresley]

[quote="bec"]

From the old forum, Shikster brought up the no defib argument. Not only was there no defib present at MJs house, despite the fact that Dr. Murray is a cardiologist, but also Dr. Murray refused to allow EMTs to defib MJ at the scene or on the way to the hospital.

Why would this be? If it truly was MJ's dead body laying there and Dr. Murray indeed believed he was facing manslaughter charges, what justification is there for not zapping that corpse into next week?

This simple fact alone makes me believe either we have MJ in make up playing dead on the bed, or an extremely realitstic Hollywood style dummy that Dr. Murray was afraid would catch on fire or melt.[/quote]

Okay, that made me laugh! I can just imagine all of the EMT's frantically trying to save a DUMMY!!

Hey, could be

It explains why no defib (serious about the melting posibility), why Dr. Murray kept interfering, why the EMTs thought something funny was going on, and why they didn't want to take it to the hospital. Also explains why they called the patient "IT" as in "it just looked like a frail, sickly, old man". I really can't believe EMTs would speak so disrespectfully about any of their "clients" appearances, no matter who they are. Also explains the ambulance pic and why the mag bought it... it IS real, but it's a dummy. Explains why the mask doesn't fit right and it looks like MJ from 15 years ago, it's a dummy from 15 years ago. Might even explain the EMTs one armed CPR in the pic, EMT is thinking, "um, ok, we'll play along with this crazy doctor telling us to take either a LONG dead dude or a dummy to the ER, but I'm not going to break a sweat over it either way..." *grumble*

I dunno, I'm torn about 50-50, dummy-MJ in make-up playing dead, that went for the ambulance ride.

I totally missed the EMT's calling whomever was on that gurney an 'it'. Wow. I've had the unfortunate experience of having EMT's at my grandparents house several times before they died and then when they died and they were always very respectful of us as a family and my grandparents as people. Something is definitely not kosher.

[velvetsilvergirl]

Ummm, I think he wouldnt have not wanted the defib used becasue he wouldnt have wanted the fake dead guy to end up alive - if you buy the theory that a terminally ill person was in MJ's place. I'm not sure about that one...

I dont know if any of the conversation surrounding the paramedics is anyting but planted.

I asked this in the other forum but no one responded:
According to the chef, they were asked to leave the house by the paramedics (or security). Isnt that strange? Since when do paramedics ask you to leave the house and why? And chef said no one saw Mj loaded onto the ambulance. Of course not. Why would anyone actually see anything?

[bec]

Ummm, I think he wouldnt have not wanted the defib used becasue he wouldnt have wanted the fake dead guy to end up alive - if you buy the theory that a terminally ill person was in MJ's place. I'm not sure about that one...

I don't believe in the terminally ill double theory because this is a crime, no matter how you look at it. A dead body pegged with a false ID has got to be a federal offense of some sort.

If Michael Jackson is going to hoax his death, it's going to be all in good fun in the end with no crime commited (save a few technicality type paperwork violations) and certainly with no one actually dying. A good team of lawyers could be consulted on a "hypothetical" basis on how to ensure a planned death hoax stays within the legal framework, even if just barely, and I'm sure that doesn't involve a real dead body.

[Another.Part.Of.Me]

Ummm, I think he wouldnt have not wanted the defib used becasue he wouldnt have wanted the fake dead guy to end up alive - if you buy the theory that a terminally ill person was in MJ's place. I'm not sure about that one...

I don't believe in the terminally ill double theory because this is a crime, no matter how you look at it. A dead body pegged with a false ID has got to be a federal offense of some sort.

If Michael Jackson is going to hoax his death, it's going to be all in good fun in the end with no crime commited (save a few technicality type paperwork violations) and certainly with no one actually dying. A good team of lawyers could be consulted on a "hypothetical" basis on how to ensure a planned death hoax stays within the legal framework, even if just barely, and I'm sure that doesn't involve a real dead body.

I have to agree with you there, although that throws a spanner into the autopsy/double theory as Katherine has just asked for a 3rd autopsy. Not sure how that will work seeing as a). the 'body' is supposed to be embalmed already b). it's mysteriously disappeared and nobody has seen it and c). we have an unreliable, possibly fake (has it been debunked yet) nurse/hospital worker who says she saw Michael walking through the basement or underground section of the hospital surrounded by people.

If any of those are true then wth did they do an autopsy on?

*Edited*
Also, the guy who owns TMZ is a lawyer (possible consultations in return for the scoop of the century?) and nobody at the hospital has specifically said 'Michael Jackson is dead. We are doing an autopsy on Michael Jackson', not to mention the security guard Tippy Alvarez referring to him as 'a gentleman' not Michael Jackscon.
If Michael Jackson is dying in front of you, you'd scream out 'OMG, help! Michael Jackson is not breathing in front of me' *panic attack*, *hyperventilate* etc.

[STARbaybeeRoqk]

shoot both of your assumptions seems so true that i dont know which could have been possible...lol...but i do wonder! What the 'body' looked like when it was about to get the defib

[STARbaybeeRoqk]

Now I know the skeptic's argument for not defibing is because Dr. Murray kept saying MJ had a weak pulse.

Weak pulse=alive. You cannot zap someone with a weak pulse, you will kill them.

The skeptic will say Dr. Murray wanted to claim the weak pulse all the way to the ER so he would be admitted "alive".

But do you seriously think that Dr. Murray or anyone else could convince two EMTs that a long dead body is a live man with a weak pulse that somehow only Dr. Murray can feel?

And really, doesn't Dr. Murray just have to somehow get MJ into the ambulance in order for him to be sent to the ER to be pronounced dead there? If they get him to the ambulance, defib the crap out of him all the way to the hospital, they're not going to quit as they pull in the drive, pronounce him DOA and send the cops screaming back to the "crime scene".

So, makes no sense to me for Dr. Murray to not allow the EMTs to defib him on the way to the hospital if he was truly long dead as is being reported.

The question is, if MJ is playing dead, can he deal with one armed CPR and that tube for the respirator down his throat? I mean, we all know one armed CPR isn't going to save your life but is it weak enough to be able to be lived through by someone faking?

Why does this all of a sudden feel like the David Blaine/Chris Angel magic act?

about the first bold point lol i think thats probably the point right there lol...everyone had to evacuate the hospital...if this is true but idk...the fire alarm was pulled at the hospital and im guessing its MJ's key to escape lol but umm idk still doesnt make since because they said he looked like a frail old man
but anywho!
lol what magic act are you talking about?

[Another.Part.Of.Me]

Apparently the fire alarm was pulled at the hospital/clinic next door to the Ronald Reagan UCLA medical centre.
The Admin of MJHD used a link to a woman's blog where it was said that they had to evacuate the hospital around the time MJ was brought in. However, the writer of that blog has tried to clear it up by contacting Admin unsuccessfully because she was in the building next door and not the RR UCLA medical centre. It was the building next door where she was getting her cancer treatment and not the UCLA centre itself.
Someone posted her blog response in another thread on here clearing it up.

[bec]

Ummm, I think he wouldnt have not wanted the defib used becasue he wouldnt have wanted the fake dead guy to end up alive - if you buy the theory that a terminally ill person was in MJ's place. I'm not sure about that one...

I don't believe in the terminally ill double theory because this is a crime, no matter how you look at it. A dead body pegged with a false ID has got to be a federal offense of some sort.

If Michael Jackson is going to hoax his death, it's going to be all in good fun in the end with no crime commited (save a few technicality type paperwork violations) and certainly with no one actually dying. A good team of lawyers could be consulted on a "hypothetical" basis on how to ensure a planned death hoax stays within the legal framework, even if just barely, and I'm sure that doesn't involve a real dead body.

I have to agree with you there, although that throws a spanner into the autopsy/double theory as Katherine has just asked for a 3rd autopsy. Not sure how that will work seeing as a). the 'body' is supposed to be embalmed already b). it's mysteriously disappeared and nobody has seen it and c). we have an unreliable, possibly fake (has it been debunked yet) nurse/hospital worker who says she saw Michael walking through the basement or underground section of the hospital surrounded by people.

If any of those are true then wth did they do an autopsy on?

*Edited*
Also, the guy who owns TMZ is a lawyer (possible consultations in return for the scoop of the century?) and nobody at the hospital has specifically said 'Michael Jackson is dead. We are doing an autopsy on Michael Jackson', not to mention the security guard Tippy Alvarez referring to him as 'a gentleman' not Michael Jackscon.
If Michael Jackson is dying in front of you, you'd scream out 'OMG, help! Michael Jackson is not breathing in front of me' *panic attack*, *hyperventilate* etc.

I think Katherine is full of crap, lol. I'm also not convinced we actually know any autopsey has been done on any body in connection with the "Michael Jackson Investigation".

I have no idea how I'd react if MJ was my boss and he was having a heart attack. Honestly, I'd be in work mode, not fan mode though so I'd be expected to handle the situation professionally.

[endlessfire]

on another thread somewhere there's a link to MJ buying masks or dummies at a store called 'off the wall' just before the O2 thing. and those were like medical grade or something very life like.

[bec]

Quick off topic comment, Katherine reminds me of a clueless granny, well meaning and tough, but completely in the dark about what's in her best interest here. Psst, Katherine, zip it, it's being handled.

[Another.Part.Of.Me]

Quick off topic comment, Katherine reminds me of a clueless granny, well meaning and tough, but completely in the dark about what's in her best interest here. Psst, Katherine, zip it, it's being handled.

Rofl, bless her, she should take a leaf out of Janet and Rebbie's book and stay silent

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