Michael thought Hitler was a genius?

Okay I will venture out into the waters of controversy and ask a question that kind of relates to this rag's article.

What was Michael thinking by taking on THAT military look?

It was eerie, scary and offensive to many people back in the States, especially the Jewish ones.
*massive army marching in lock step
*the wide arm bands
* the "leader" always waving to adoring and cheering crowds
*lots of tanks and trucks evoking images of battle or war

Feedback please?

Interesting question GirlSaturday. Thanks for posting because I think it's one that people tend to shy away from.

The official explanatiion for the armbands is to remind people worldwide of the suffering of children that takes place across the globe.

When you say the army and trucks and tanks are you referring to the promo video for the HIStory album? That also fits in with the wording of "They Don't Care About Us" which was taken from that very same album.

No he didnt.. I dont believe that.. Michael didnt wear the armbands because of that..

MyBelovedMJ wrote:No he didnt.. I dont believe that.. Michael didnt wear the armbands because of that..

It came up several times when I googled it but if you can shed some light on it I would love to know why it was!

Yes HIStory...

It wasn't until recently that I learned the reason behind the armbands.

Prior to that , all I and many others saw was some type of Adolf Hitler re-enactments and it was uncomfortable to watch with that thought rolling in your head.

I''m about to jump back into the water of controversy so beware of my splash....

Americans, especially many Southerners, have a fascination with the American Civil War and that whole period during slavery. I wondered if MJ had picked up something similar since he was spending so much time in Europe and especially Germany.

Apologies to any people that I have offended...

Bottom line if he had another positive message especially since this was for the HIStory tour(pun was probably intended) , then it didn't come across in the visual image that was projected.

quote="Rach"]Interesting question GirlSaturday. Thanks for posting because I think it's one that people tend to shy away from.

The official explanatiion for the armbands is to remind people worldwide of the suffering of children that takes place across the globe.

When you say the army and trucks and tanks are you referring to the promo video for the HIStory album? That also fits in with the wording of "They Don't Care About Us" which was taken from that very same album.[/quote]

Now I don't know if this ties in with what you're thinking but I found this a while back.

The guy who put together the artwork for the HIStory album is called Gottfried Helnwein and he is an artist, painter, photographer, installation and performance artist that Michael has known since 1988.

I picked this excert off of Wikipedia but it looks like he has done a lot of work relating to the holocaust so maybe this was the one who suggested the idea?

Mitchell Waxman wrote 2004, in The Jewish Journal, Los Angeles: "The most powerful images that deal with Nazism and Holocaust themes are by Anselm Kiefer and Helnwein, although, Kiefer's work differs considerably from Helnwein's in his concern with the effect of German aggression on the national psyche and the complexities of German cultural heritage. Kiefer is known for evocative and soulful images of barren German landscapes. But Kiefer and Helnwein's work are both informed by the personal experience of growing up in a post-war German speaking country... William Burroughs said that the American revolution begins in books and music, and political operatives implement the changes after the fact. To this maybe we can add art. And Helnwein's art might have the capacity to instigate change by piercing the veil of political correctness to recapture the primitive gesture inherent in art."^[21].

One of the most famous paintings of Helnwein's oeuvre is Epiphany I - Adoration of the Magi, (1996, oil and acrylic on canvas, 210 cm x 333 cm, collection of the Denver Art Museum). It is part of a series of three paintings: Epiphany I, Epiphany II (Adoration of the Shepherds), Epiphany III (Presentation at the Temple), created between 1996 and 1998. In Epiphany I, SS officers surround a mother and child group. To judge by their looks and gestures, they appear to be interested in details such as head, face, back and genitals. The arrangement of the figures clearly relates to motive and iconography of the adoration of the three Magi, such as were common especially in the German, Italian and Dutch 15th century artworks. Julia Pascal wrote about this work in the New Statesman: "This Austrian Catholic Nativity scene has no Magi bearing gifts. Madonna and child are encircled by five respectful Waffen SS officers palpably in awe of the idealised, blonde Virgin. The Christ toddler, who stands on Mary's lap, stares defiantly out of the canvas." Helnwein's baby Jesus is often considered to represent Adolf Hitler.^[22].

i posted awhile back concerning a JCC clue now i don't know exactly what the clue said e was it "germany is key" or was it "look to germany"
because "look to germany" is the title of a book written i think by an American a few years before WWII and the book is admiring the german political and economical system at that time but once the war broke out it was a big no-no to have it in your book collection as they saw it as nazi propoganda Now i find it hard to believe impossibly actually that MJ had any sympathy for the Nazi regime so I had to wonder about JCC's validity if he was indeed referring to that then again if he's simply stating MJ's admiration for Germany then we would really need to find out if he has indeed such strong ties to the country

By visual images, I am referring to those from the first post i.e. wide arm band, lockstep marching and the leader waving to large adoring crowds. Now that I look at it, MJ may have been working on a historic theme as he promoted the HIStory tour. Unfortunately the symbolism that he chose was from a rather controversial and uncomfortable period in world history. I cannot remember if it was MTV or some other source but I was watching with a friend (Jewish)and the image came up and we were both stunned. "MJ... WTF are you doing now!"

Thanks for the feedback.

Rach wrote:Now I don't know if this ties in with what you're thinking but I found this a while back.

The guy who put together the artwork for the HIStory album is called Gottfried Helnwein and he is an artist, painter, photographer, installation and performance artist that Michael has known since 1988.

I picked this excert off of Wikipedia but it looks like he has done a lot of work relating to the holocaust so maybe this was the one who suggested the idea?

Mitchell Waxman wrote 2004, in The Jewish Journal, Los Angeles: "The most powerful images that deal with Nazism and Holocaust themes are by Anselm Kiefer and Helnwein, although, Kiefer's work differs considerably from Helnwein's in his concern with the effect of German aggression on the national psyche and the complexities of German cultural heritage. Kiefer is known for evocative and soulful images of barren German landscapes. But Kiefer and Helnwein's work are both informed by the personal experience of growing up in a post-war German speaking country... William Burroughs said that the American revolution begins in books and music, and political operatives implement the changes after the fact. To this maybe we can add art. And Helnwein's art might have the capacity to instigate change by piercing the veil of political correctness to recapture the primitive gesture inherent in art."^[21].

One of the most famous paintings of Helnwein's oeuvre is Epiphany I - Adoration of the Magi, (1996, oil and acrylic on canvas, 210 cm x 333 cm, collection of the Denver Art Museum). It is part of a series of three paintings: Epiphany I, Epiphany II (Adoration of the Shepherds), Epiphany III (Presentation at the Temple), created between 1996 and 1998. In Epiphany I, SS officers surround a mother and child group. To judge by their looks and gestures, they appear to be interested in details such as head, face, back and genitals. The arrangement of the figures clearly relates to motive and iconography of the adoration of the three Magi, such as were common especially in the German, Italian and Dutch 15th century artworks. Julia Pascal wrote about this work in the New Statesman: "This Austrian Catholic Nativity scene has no Magi bearing gifts. Madonna and child are encircled by five respectful Waffen SS officers palpably in awe of the idealised, blonde Virgin. The Christ toddler, who stands on Mary's lap, stares defiantly out of the canvas." Helnwein's baby Jesus is often considered to represent Adolf Hitler.^[22].

I don't really think I can say anymore as to why Michael chose that particular era during the promotion of HIStory.

I agree with MJHunny that I don't think it was through admiration so who knows? Maybe we should ask Cassandra and see what she has to say on that subject?!

Didn't I mention Michael's obsession with WWII in my theory?

Cassandra aka leachim aka jcc aka Bubbles the Chimp

Rach wrote:I don't really think I can say anymore as to why Michael chose that particular era during the promotion of HIStory.

I agree with MJHunny that I don't think it was through admiration so who knows? Maybe we should ask Cassandra and see what she has to say on that subject?!

It's already been established that I was up doing some creative writing instead of studying for your theory Professor Annieisnotokey. Ummm can I have a make-up quiz?

annieisnotokey wrote:Didn't I mention Michael's obsession with WWII in my theory?

GirlSaturday wrote:It's already been established that I was up doing some creative writing instead of studying for your theory Professor Annieisnotokey. Ummm can I have a make-up quiz?

No make-up tests! You'll have to retake the subject next year!

Good morning....

I want to say..it's just the Sun....did you recognize that after MJs death some things
get lost..and suddenly they appear again...

Referring to HiStory (I don`t have the CD)..but I read something interesting about a
special artwork in the booklet.
It's only german, but please have a look at page 3:

The left one is the original…
the right one is the one which was published (it was censored by sony)
There are hardly differences to see for me…
right corner on top: star of david and jerusalem…
left corner bottom: the word God
http://www.mjackson.net/fanzin…..806_ug.pdf

Hmm who is Hitler ?

iMISSYOUMJ wrote:Hmm who is Hitler ?

You are so sweet and innocent!

You may want to get your parents permission before you read this because it is pretty horrible but you can read up on him here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

Good job Rachel.

Pssst ...another reason to clean up our act in this forum.

Rach wrote:

iMISSYOUMJ wrote:Hmm who is Hitler ?

You are so sweet and innocent!

You may want to get your parents permission before you read this because it is pretty horrible but you can read up on him here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

GirlSaturday wrote:Good job Rachel.

Pssst ...another reason to clean up our act in this forum. [url=http://

[/quote[/url]]

Absolutley!

I feel like I have had my eyes opened tonight in terms of the young impressionable people we have coming onto the site.

Rach wrote:

iMISSYOUMJ wrote:Hmm who is Hitler ?

You are so sweet and innocent!

You may want to get your parents permission before you read this because it is pretty horrible but you can read up on him here

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler[/quote[/url]]

Oh thankyou Rachel , now I know who he was !

okay first Hitler took everything from ancient Rome- the hand sign, the "swastika"- he did not discovered anything new- so if MJ used some of this signs that not have anything to do with Hitler...

the second- military uniform...well well this is kind of very common uniform which you can find in almost every country- the only difference is that armband- well why should they refer to hitler? his army was not only one wearing it in history of people...this things was used in color black to demonstrate grief and communists in russia (Bolsheviki) during the revolution wear them in red... so please why always come back to that?

phoenix wrote:okay first Hitler took everything from ancient Rome- the hand sign, the "swastika"- he did not discovered anything new- so if MJ used some of this signs that not have anything to do with Hitler...

the second- military uniform...well well this is kind of very common uniform which you can find in almost every country- the only difference is that armband- well why should they refer to hitler? his army was not only one wearing it in history of people...this things was used in color black to demonstrate grief and communists in russia (Bolsheviki) during the revolution wear them in red... so please why always come back to that?

I was reading and thinking why isn't anyone making other historical references. Hitler was not the only person in world history! Ancient Rome was indeed one of the first to have huge parades glorifying the leader and the empire. Across the world many have followed..not only Hitler. He is just the most infamous. And symbols he used as the swastika were used in hindoeism,boeddhism and also in ancient Greece and Rome. And saying Hitler is a genius has nothing to do with saying he was a good guy. People need to learn to objectively analyze stuff without thinking that it means glorifying. I don't think Michael Jackson said anything wrong if he did say he was a genius. I agree. I would only add he had also very smart people surrounding him. (Not GOOD people surrounding him..SMART people). Intelligence has nothing to do with morality.

Thank you for the clarification.

It comes back to "that" because American history books and classes do not cover nearly as much world history as some might assume. There are slight mentions of historic world figures and events but not a lot.
Hitler/Nazis images always depicted arm bands, swastikas and that style of uniform. We were not taught that Romans wore the arm band. That uniform does not resemble ours therefore it is not common to us. It may be common in European countries. LOL..do you really want me to tell you how little that most Americans know about Communists or Russia(Bolsheviki)?

Please note that a person's lack of exposure to other cultures outside of their own does contribute to their perception. What may be common knowledge for one may be completely new to another. The information that you have shared has educated me regarding areas of a culture that is new to me. It was not my intent to offend anyone with my question. I asked because in my world the images during MJ's HIStory tour were viewed here as negative and in questionable taste based on our perception and knowledge. Perhaps now I can say our LACK of knowledge.

I am glad that the question was asked because now when the topic comes up, I can educate someone else.

You have enlightened me Phoenix.

phoenix wrote:okay first Hitler took everything from ancient Rome- the hand sign, the "swastika"- he did not discovered anything new- so if MJ used some of this signs that not have anything to do with Hitler...

the second- military uniform...well well this is kind of very common uniform which you can find in almost every country- the only difference is that armband- well why should they refer to hitler? his army was not only one wearing it in history of people...this things was used in color black to demonstrate grief and communists in russia (Bolsheviki) during the revolution wear them in red... so please why always come back to that?

GirlSaturday wrote:Thank you for the clarification.

It comes back to "that" because American history books and classes do not cover nearly as much world history as some might assume. There are slight mentions of historic world figures and events but not a lot.
Hitler/Nazis images always depicted arm bands, swastikas and that style of uniform. We were not taught that Romans wore the arm band. That uniform does not resemble ours therefore it is not common to us. It may be common in European countries. LOL..do you really want me to tell you how little that most Americans know about Communists or Russia(Bolsheviki)?

Please note that a person's lack of exposure to other cultures outside of their own does contribute to their perception. What may be common knowledge for one may be completely new to another. The information that you have shared has educated me regarding areas of a culture that is new to me. It was not my intent to offend anyone with my question. I asked because in my world the images during MJ's HIStory tour were viewed here as negative and in questionable taste based on our perception and knowledge. Perhaps now I can say our LACK of knowledge.

I am glad that the question was asked because now when the topic comes up, I can educate someone else.

You have enlightened me Phoenix.

phoenix wrote:okay first Hitler took everything from ancient Rome- the hand sign, the "swastika"- he did not discovered anything new- so if MJ used some of this signs that not have anything to do with Hitler...

the second- military uniform...well well this is kind of very common uniform which you can find in almost every country- the only difference is that armband- well why should they refer to hitler? his army was not only one wearing it in history of people...this things was used in color black to demonstrate grief and communists in russia (Bolsheviki) during the revolution wear them in red... so please why always come back to that?

oh i am sorry- really dont mind it in kind of ignorant way when i wrote it down because i really thought that this kind of history knowledge should be very important school subject everywhere and i am sorry to hear its not because that explains very much why kids nowdays have to ask who hitler is....
maybe politicians should look more deep into school education so people know what history is about- only that would prevent people to do same terrible things again

Phoenix is absolutely right...Hitler found his inspiration from the ancient Romans....

In the 30's and 40's...there was a director who made movies for Hitler. Her name
was Leni Riefenstahl, she made a movie about the Olympic Games 1936 in Berlin
and her most famous movie is "Triumph of the will"
Don't shoot me ..but she was some kind of Hitlers "Kenny O.".....

Here a sequence from the movie...with a military parade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaCH9owSvzM

and here MJs history teaser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyDQUvPti5Q


In every totalitarian regime there a such parades until now...not only in Germany during WW II....
In former Soviet Union...nowadays still in North Korea, China, Venezuela
so here you can compare.

Venezuela:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Ft6EzanJo

China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRyls93H8w&feature=PlayList&p=96D7D8052CC12A14&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

Russia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReGqS3TDYRM

North Korea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnZBgiZ3d8s

I absolutely agree with Phoenix and Confused.
One of the things that I admire most in Michael is how open a mind he has. I think it is obvious for any of us that he was in no way praising the nazis or manifesting affinity with their 'ideas'.
Michael is a very clever and educated guy, he picked from here and there for inspiration, but then transformed these inspirational elements into a very personal unique thing. I tend to think that not everything he did had to be autobiographical necessarily; I mean, the fact that he is marching with the soldiers doesn't mean it is Michael Jackson marching with the soldiers. We know (sure we do!) that he has always liked film, and acting...well, he is an entertainer, not just a singer/dancer/songwriter. He represents roles. IMO, in the HIStory video, he was representing a role, as well as being Michael Jackson. He creates worlds of fantasy, sometimes these mix with reality. But what he did was much more complex than it meets the eye, I'm sure there is a message behind the HIStory video, but it is definitely NOT the obvious one. I'm also sure that he knew what the general public would think of it immediately, but he is a brave guy who challenges the system, not who follows it tamely. In some ways he wasn't 'politically correct' (I myself hate political correctness because there is so much hypocrisy behind that) He dared talking about/alluding to things that most people are afraid to even mention (Sony speech as an example, that takes guts)

No one said he was a zombie after he did Thriller, or that he was a gigolo after he did vids like 'in the closet', etc- In other words, they all assumed he was acting, only when people see negative connotations do they jump out and are to quick to draw conclusions. Some people are mean. And Michael is far from simplistic

I won't deny that I was a little puzzled when HIStory first came out, the thing about the statue, etc., it left me a bit ????? But I was pretty young back then and I now realise that I wasn't able to understand the complexity of it all. I'm glad it's clearer for me now!

dontmakeitfactual wrote:I absolutely agree with Phoenix and Confused.
One of the things that I admire most in Michael is how open a mind he has. I think it is obvious for any of us that he was in no way praising the nazis or manifesting affinity with their 'ideas'.
Michael is a very clever and educated guy, he picked from here and there for inspiration, but then transformed these inspirational elements into a very personal unique thing. I tend to think that not everything he did had to be autobiographical necessarily; I mean, the fact that he is marching with the soldiers doesn't mean it is Michael Jackson marching with the soldiers. We know (sure we do!) that he has always liked film, and acting...well, he is an entertainer, not just a singer/dancer/songwriter. He represents roles. IMO, in the HIStory video, he was representing a role, as well as being Michael Jackson. He creates worlds of fantasy, sometimes these mix with reality. But what he did was much more complex than it meets the eye, I'm sure there is a message behind the HIStory video, but it is definitely NOT the obvious one. I'm also sure that he knew what the general public would think of it immediately, but he is a brave guy who challenges the system, not who follows it tamely. In some ways he wasn't 'politically correct' (I myself hate political correctness because there is so much hypocrisy behind that) He dared talking about/alluding to things that most people are afraid to even mention (Sony speech as an example, that takes guts)

No one said he was a zombie after he did Thriller, or that he was a gigolo after he did vids like 'in the closet', etc- In other words, they all assumed he was acting, only when people see negative connotations do they jump out and are to quick to draw conclusions. Some people are mean. And Michael is far from simplistic

I'm so glad you mentioned that. That is one of the main reasons that I never got bored with him. It gives him so much character that he never gave into meaningless correctness. There is only something to be said for political correctness when it is sincere. But most of the time it is just a cover for the most vile people in the world. It is the same thing when they accused him of terrible things with those children..He NEVER backed away from children because he didn't do anything wrong. Like usual.. the nastiest people projecting their own dirty minds. Some people obviously have a one dimensional personality and think all people are like that. I'm sure Michael had the ability to have more then just one thought in his mind when being fascinated by historical events.

Confused wrote:

dontmakeitfactual wrote:I absolutely agree with Phoenix and Confused.
One of the things that I admire most in Michael is how open a mind he has. I think it is obvious for any of us that he was in no way praising the nazis or manifesting affinity with their 'ideas'.
Michael is a very clever and educated guy, he picked from here and there for inspiration, but then transformed these inspirational elements into a very personal unique thing. I tend to think that not everything he did had to be autobiographical necessarily; I mean, the fact that he is marching with the soldiers doesn't mean it is Michael Jackson marching with the soldiers. We know (sure we do!) that he has always liked film, and acting...well, he is an entertainer, not just a singer/dancer/songwriter. He represents roles. IMO, in the HIStory video, he was representing a role, as well as being Michael Jackson. He creates worlds of fantasy, sometimes these mix with reality. But what he did was much more complex than it meets the eye, I'm sure there is a message behind the HIStory video, but it is definitely NOT the obvious one. I'm also sure that he knew what the general public would think of it immediately, but he is a brave guy who challenges the system, not who follows it tamely. In some ways he wasn't 'politically correct' (I myself hate political correctness because there is so much hypocrisy behind that) He dared talking about/alluding to things that most people are afraid to even mention (Sony speech as an example, that takes guts)

No one said he was a zombie after he did Thriller, or that he was a gigolo after he did vids like 'in the closet', etc- In other words, they all assumed he was acting, only when people see negative connotations do they jump out and are to quick to draw conclusions. Some people are mean. And Michael is far from simplistic

I'm so glad you mentioned that. That is one of the main reasons that I never got bored with him. It gives him so much character that he never gave into meaningless correctness. There is only something to be said for political correctness when it is sincere. But most of the time it is just a cover for the most vile people in the world. It is the same thing when they accused him of terrible things with those children..He NEVER backed away from children because he didn't do anything wrong. Like usual.. the nastiest people projecting their own dirty minds. Some people obviously have a one dimensional personality and think all people are like that. I'm sure Michael had the ability to have more then just one thought in his mind when being fascinated by historical events.

Agreeing with you on everything 100%!

If only there was some more sincerity and honesty going around, there would be no need for such a term as political correctness!
My thoughts exactly on the children's issue, well put!

Thanks. Once again you have brought me great information to study and gain knowledge.

ilprincipe wrote:Phoenix is absolutely right...Hitler found his inspiration from the ancient Romans....

In the 30's and 40's...there was a director who made movies for Hitler. Her name
was Leni Riefenstahl, she made a movie about the Olympic Games 1936 in Berlin
and her most famous movie is "Triumph of the will"
Don't shoot me ..but she was some kind of Hitlers "Kenny O.".....

Here a sequence from the movie...with a military parade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaCH9owSvzM

and here MJs history teaser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyDQUvPti5Q


In every totalitarian regime there a such parades until now...not only in Germany during WW II....
In former Soviet Union...nowadays still in North Korea, China, Venezuela
so here you can compare.

Venezuela:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Ft6EzanJo

China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRyls93H8w&feature=PlayList&p=96D7D8052CC12A14&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

Russia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReGqS3TDYRM

North Korea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnZBgiZ3d8s

Touchy topic, yet, wanted to share some comments .I highlighted topic points for quicker reading.Thank you.

Long post...sorry, deep topic! No offense to anyone as Totalitarian governments are a part of our global history and is not just applicable to Hitler...I believe MJ used dramatic Hitler imagery to evoke us to 'stop and look and question' our own curent political climate and how Totalitarianism is currently impacting global politics....example, see MJ's 'They don't care about us'...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Totalitarianism_From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority
and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[2] Totalitarianism is generally
characterized by the coincidence of authoritarianism (i.e., where ordinary citizens have no significant share in
state decision-making) and ideology (i.e., a pervasive scheme of values promulgated by institutional means to direct
the most significant aspects of public and private life)[3].
Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of an official all-embracing
ideology and propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that controls the
state, personality cults, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the
use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of state terrorism. (Eg, 'swine flu')

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Examples of Totalitarianism In popular culture

According to Soviet writer Fazil Iskander,[27]
“ Under the totalitarian regime, it was as if you were forced to live in the same room with an insanely violent man.
”
—Fazil Iskander

George Orwell's books Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm are famous for their depiction of a totalitarian society,
as is their lesser-known predecessor, We by Yevgeny Zamyatin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mass surveillance_From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mass surveillance is the pervasive surveillance of an entire population, or a substantial fraction thereof.
Modern governments today commonly perform mass surveillance of their citizens, explaining that they believe that it
is necessary to protect them from dangerous groups such as terrorists, criminals, or political subversives and to
maintain social control.
Mass surveillance has been widely criticized on several grounds such as violations of privacy rights, illegality,
and for preventing political and social freedoms, which some fear will ultimately lead to a totalitarian state where
political dissent is crushed by COINTELPRO-like programs. Such a state may also be referred to as an Electronic
Police State.-this is critical info, see below Bills 773 and 778

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....
Armbands signifigance

http://books.google.ca/books?id=t-tQ9V2--1kC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=hitler+armbands+symbollism&source=bl&ots=IscUAlWFfU
&sig=6YksEFzEI_IF2fPULNXXm1m1AAc&hl=en&ei=X6u8SpK3AdCtlAews93GDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=
&f=false

In book, 'Mein Kempf', Hitler discussed colors for his flag and armbands...he decided to use black, white and red....red
background, white disc in middle and black swastika...symbollism was red=social movement, white=nationalist movement,
swastika=Aryan ideal....the white disc is like a sun disc (aka Illuminati symbol).....straight arm slute thought to
be inspired by Mussolini......

Yes, MJ ware armbands to 'remember the children' yets evokes analogy to Hitler's armband...and the reminder to be poltically aware....=fight the good fight.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hitler vs 'fundamentals ofNational Socialism'

Suggested reading on Hitler_
Hitler's perspective='Mein Kempf"
World's perspective on Hitler=The Third Reich

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
HIStory tour-image of MJ on stage standing infront of army tank

'MJ tank image' was a direct reference in real history, China 1989....Lone student standing in front of army tank in protest
Tiananmen Square protests of 1989....one person changed the history of a nation while the whole world looked on....televised...amazing ( google for more).
The Tiananmen Square massacre ais one of one of the most famous pics in the world is lone Chinese student standing in front of an army tank by way of protest...MJ's use of this image is inspiration to us suggesting that 'one voice' can make a difference...be that voice! ... for the people, by the people...NOT a totaliarian government.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

MJ imagery applied to modern Politics

All MJ fans know that MJ was brilliant....and very well read. His lyrics refer to love and on a different level, larger social issues .....MJ's message about not 'taking things at face value' meant not just tabloids but... to life/politics in general.

MJ's message alluded to importance of educating yourself...don't let people tell you what to say/think....what is social norm' to you? Should 'social norm' be decided by one person (a Hitler or an Obama?) or should 'social norm' be decided by the
peoples?

This is no joke and our governments today are making many decisions that impact our lives and 'how' we will live
them... swine flu, Illuminati influencing political leaders...Senate Bills 773 and 778 ,currently before Senate for vote, introduced
by Rockefeller (Illuminati, New World Order inflences).

These Bills are BAD...as the would grat TOTALITARIAN power to US government over the use of the internet. Microsoft has about 93.72% saturation of
GLOBAL market for internet so if Bills 773 and 778 get passed, then US government will control 93.72% of the WORLD's
internet...all this is happening under the 'guise' of protecting citizens from cyberterrorism, so how 'smooth
criminal', New World Order is that for you???? Yikes! Fight for your rights! See below for more on Bills 773 and 778.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FYI, if you want more on Senate Bills 773 and 778 (google for more)

David Rockefeller IV, the NWO spin doctor and modern version of the Gestapo, was the architect of these two Bills,
S.773 and S778 respectively, (URL

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD(FLD003+@4((@1(Sen+Rockefeller++John+D.++IV))+01424)

Premise of Bill S.773 states that ..." A bill to ensure the continued free flow of commerce within the United States
and with its global trading partners through secure cyber communications, to provide for the continued development
and exploitation of the Internet and intranet communications for such purposes, to provide for the development of a
cadre of information technology specialists to improve and maintain effective cybersecurity defenses against
disruption, and for other purposes."

Premise of Bill S.778 states"..A bill to establish, within the Executive Office of the President, the Office of
National Cybersecurity Advisor."
ISP's alarmed at Senate Bill granting Presidential control of
Internet__http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html?tag=rtcol;pop

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scary stuff people...and it is happening right now!

Thanks for the very thought-provoking information within the post. It sheds the light on quite a few things.

BTW- Where are you from?

White_Orchid wrote:Touchy topic, yet, wanted to share some comments .I highlighted topic points for quicker reading.Thank you.

Long post...sorry, deep topic! No offense to anyone as Totalitarian governments are a part of our global history and is not just applicable to Hitler...I believe MJ used dramatic Hitler imagery to evoke us to 'stop and look and question' our own curent political climate and how Totalitarianism is currently impacting global politics....example, see MJ's 'They don't care about us'...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Totalitarianism_From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority
and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[2] Totalitarianism is generally
characterized by the coincidence of authoritarianism (i.e., where ordinary citizens have no significant share in
state decision-making) and ideology (i.e., a pervasive scheme of values promulgated by institutional means to direct
the most significant aspects of public and private life)[3].
Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of an official all-embracing
ideology and propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that controls the
state, personality cults, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the
use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of state terrorism. (Eg, 'swine flu')

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Examples of Totalitarianism In popular culture

According to Soviet writer Fazil Iskander,[27]
“ Under the totalitarian regime, it was as if you were forced to live in the same room with an insanely violent man.
”
—Fazil Iskander

George Orwell's books Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm are famous for their depiction of a totalitarian society,
as is their lesser-known predecessor, We by Yevgeny Zamyatin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mass surveillance_From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mass surveillance is the pervasive surveillance of an entire population, or a substantial fraction thereof.
Modern governments today commonly perform mass surveillance of their citizens, explaining that they believe that it
is necessary to protect them from dangerous groups such as terrorists, criminals, or political subversives and to
maintain social control.
Mass surveillance has been widely criticized on several grounds such as violations of privacy rights, illegality,
and for preventing political and social freedoms, which some fear will ultimately lead to a totalitarian state where
political dissent is crushed by COINTELPRO-like programs. Such a state may also be referred to as an Electronic
Police State.-this is critical info, see below Bills 773 and 778

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....
Armbands signifigance

http://books.google.ca/books?id=t-tQ9V2--1kC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=hitler+armbands+symbollism&source=bl&ots=IscUAlWFfU
&sig=6YksEFzEI_IF2fPULNXXm1m1AAc&hl=en&ei=X6u8SpK3AdCtlAews93GDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=
&f=false

In book, 'Mein Kempf', Hitler discussed colors for his flag and armbands...he decided to use black, white and red....red
background, white disc in middle and black swastika...symbollism was red=social movement, white=nationalist movement,
swastika=Aryan ideal....the white disc is like a sun disc (aka Illuminati symbol).....straight arm slute thought to
be inspired by Mussolini......

Yes, MJ ware armbands to 'remember the children' yets evokes analogy to Hitler's armband...and the reminder to be poltically aware....=fight the good fight.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hitler vs 'fundamentals ofNational Socialism'

Suggested reading on Hitler_
Hitler's perspective='Mein Kempf"
World's perspective on Hitler=The Third Reich

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
HIStory tour-image of MJ on stage standing infront of army tank

'MJ tank image' was a direct reference in real history, China 1989....Lone student standing in front of army tank in protest
Tiananmen Square protests of 1989....one person changed the history of a nation while the whole world looked on....televised...amazing ( google for more).
The Tiananmen Square massacre ais one of one of the most famous pics in the world is lone Chinese student standing in front of an army tank by way of protest...MJ's use of this image is inspiration to us suggesting that 'one voice' can make a difference...be that voice! ... for the people, by the people...NOT a totaliarian government.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

MJ imagery applied to modern Politics

All MJ fans know that MJ was brilliant....and very well read. His lyrics refer to love and on a different level, larger social issues .....MJ's message about not 'taking things at face value' meant not just tabloids but... to life/politics in general.

MJ's message alluded to importance of educating yourself...don't let people tell you what to say/think....what is social norm' to you? Should 'social norm' be decided by one person (a Hitler or an Obama?) or should 'social norm' be decided by the
peoples?

This is no joke and our governments today are making many decisions that impact our lives and 'how' we will live
them... swine flu, Illuminati influencing political leaders...Senate Bills 773 and 778 ,currently before Senate for vote, introduced
by Rockefeller (Illuminati, New World Order inflences).

These Bills are BAD...as the would grat TOTALITARIAN power to US government over the use of the internet. Microsoft has about 93.72% saturation of
GLOBAL market for internet so if Bills 773 and 778 get passed, then US government will control 93.72% of the WORLD's
internet...all this is happening under the 'guise' of protecting citizens from cyberterrorism, so how 'smooth
criminal', New World Order is that for you???? Yikes! Fight for your rights! See below for more on Bills 773 and 778.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FYI, if you want more on Senate Bills 773 and 778 (google for more)

David Rockefeller IV, the NWO spin doctor and modern version of the Gestapo, was the architect of these two Bills,
S.773 and S778 respectively, (URL

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD(FLD003+@4((@1(Sen+Rockefeller++John+D.++IV))+01424)

Premise of Bill S.773 states that ..." A bill to ensure the continued free flow of commerce within the United States
and with its global trading partners through secure cyber communications, to provide for the continued development
and exploitation of the Internet and intranet communications for such purposes, to provide for the development of a
cadre of information technology specialists to improve and maintain effective cybersecurity defenses against
disruption, and for other purposes."

Premise of Bill S.778 states"..A bill to establish, within the Executive Office of the President, the Office of
National Cybersecurity Advisor."
ISP's alarmed at Senate Bill granting Presidential control of
Internet__http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html?tag=rtcol;pop

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scary stuff people...and it is happening right now!

wow...pretty much stuff.....

one little mistake...

Hitler's perspective='Mein Kempf"

It`s "Mein Kampf" (Kempf is not a german word..idk)

means in german "My fight"

ilprincipe wrote:wow...pretty much stuff.....

one little mistake...

Hitler's perspective='Mein Kempf"

It`s "Mein Kampf" (Kempf is not a german word..idk)

means in german "My fight"

LOL yeah that can happen when you put too much trust into internet sources ...sorry its just a bit funny

THIS IS WHAT MICHAEL REALLY SAID:





Jacko told close pal Rabbi Shmuley Boteach: "Hitler was a genius orator.

"To make that many people turn and change and hate, he had to be a showman and he was."



But look at what The Sun headline:








What a revolting distortion of his true comments..



Here's the rest of the article:



Sun exclusive ... full Jacko story is in today's paper







The rabbi put it to the singer, who died of heart failure in June aged 50: "You believe that if you had an hour with Hitler you could somehow touch something inside of him?"



Jackson declared: "Absolutely. I know I could." He insisted nobody was all evil, explaining:



"You have to help them, give them therapy, teach them that somewhere, something in their life went wrong."

The Jewish holyman, 42 - a rabbi at Oxford University for 11 years - taped more than 30 hours of interviews with the star.





OK...so we see here what Michael really said. Well, obviously Hitler was a genius orator....how else could he have moved the masses to commit such atrocities? Michael, in my opinion, was naive to think that he could somehow have changed Hitler, but this article shows, if anything, that Michael did NOT admire Hitler, nor wish to emulate him. That Michael's military dance styles somehow evoke images of the Gestapo is unfortunate, because they are disturbing to anyone who has seen images of goosestepping nazis. I am sure Michael knew this. I would love to be able to discuss this with him....and I would love to read more transcipts of his conversations with the rabbi.



This ridiculous headline does nothing to diminish my love for Michael. Remember, too, that Michael thought he was speaking in confidence to one of his spiritual advisors, a rabbi and a Jew.



I hope this discussion is not too uncomfortable for our German friends, whom I know stuggle with this history, just as Americans stuggle with it, and with our own with history of slavery.

Another example of how the media turn everything around.
Michael NEVER said that Hitler was a genius. His words were: "Hitler was a genius orator". Genius is used as as adjective here, meaning his orator skills were brilliant, but NOT the man himself.

Sorry, Somehow I always manage to make at least one major typo...it should have read

"This is what the article really said"

..

@GirlSaturday...I am MJ fan from Canada. I stand in awe of MJ genius and his lyrics have taught me much. MJ had many messgaes for us...and I am trying to take a lead from him when and however I can. I debated posting in case of forum attack but decided I could take it.

@ilprincipe...lol, I fatfinger typo on laptop too much! Sorry for my mistake,thanks.

@phoenix...I specifically selected random internet quotes as pointers for those who want to investigate further. lol, I can talk for hours but dinnertable is better for long talks than forum, right?

"Hitler was a genius orator"

Hitler and WWII is something i have been studying lately because of university ( politics is what i study ) i've learned there to view both sides of a dictator ( not just the awfull things like the holocaust but the rest , the reasons why they achieve the power).
as always the media picks only what they want , and using that pics tabloids are trying to make us look at the images and not what he said .
it is true the Hitler was a genius orator,but that doesn't make Michael to idolize him.
when he appeared on scene Germany was devastated by the lost in the war ( specially their pride) and he promised to give to the country everything they really deserved.
he managed to be nominated Chancellor by the legal way, he knew what to say to the people, and the way he spoked proved it.he became Chancellor because people voted in him.

imo, what Michael means with that is if he should have used his talent in good things ,
there are several types of genius , the ones that use their skills in good things and others like Hitler that waste their brain with evil.doesn't mean he admired him in a good way just recognized it. and that different ( at least for me)

this type of "news" its just more tabloid stuff, they are just continuing to do what they have been doing for years,damaging his image.

sapatito: totally agree, he was amazed how Hitler could fool so many people with his orator skills, nothing else. Typical of the Sun to take it out of its context.

[quote="Rach"]

GirlSaturday wrote:Good job Rachel.

Pssst ...another reason to clean up our act in this forum. [/quote]

Absolutley!

I feel like I have had my eyes opened tonight in terms of the young impressionable people we have coming onto the site.

Ditto.

Genius can use their intelligence to be good or bad.
A genius didn't mean GOOD person.

So yes, Hitler was a genius to be BAD.

Um.. I say that all the time. Hitler WAS a genius and if he had put his mind to something positive who KNOWS the good he could have done...

Another absolute genius? Marilyn Manson...

They just dont hone into the posititivity they can use.. Its sad..

Michael was the opposite

Guys - I just can tell you some words. I am Jewish. I obviously do not feel simpathy for HIM (Hitler). He was the biggest son of a gun on earth. However, I DID study a lot about him and why, where, who and when.

I have been following MJ's career since I do have memory as well.

With that being said, I want to clarify that Michael only stated that "hitler was a great talker" which is true! Do you have any idea of all the people that hitler hypnotized? Imagine that he used that power to make people do good things, instead of killing more than 6 million Jewish and two million gipsies, homosexuals and other minories.

I will leave that to you, so you may think about it.

And Michael liked Jewish people. A lot.

He would never use anything related to HATE on his life.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

Much love,

xoxo

Emanviam

MauraMissesMichael wrote:Um.. I say that all the time. Hitler WAS a genius and if he had put his mind to something positive who KNOWS the good he could have done...

Another absolute genius? Marilyn Manson...

They just dont hone into the posititivity they can use.. Its sad..

Michael was the opposite

That's it !

emanviam wrote:Guys - I just can tell you some words. I am Jewish. I obviously do not feel simpathy for HIM (Hitler). He was the biggest son of a gun on earth. However, I DID study a lot about him and why, where, who and when.

I have been following MJ's career since I do have memory as well.

With that being said, I want to clarify that Michael only stated that "hitler was a great talker" which is true! Do you have any idea of all the people that hitler hypnotized? Imagine that he used that power to make people do good things, instead of killing more than 6 million Jewish and two million gipsies, homosexuals and other minories.

I will leave that to you, so you may think about it.

And Michael liked Jewish people. A lot.

He would never use anything related to HATE on his life.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

Much love,

xoxo

Emanviam

Thank you Emanviam...these are MJ's comments on this matter (HIStory trailer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BInVI5ozRu4

ilprincipe wrote:Good morning....

I want to say..it's just the Sun....did you recognize that after MJs death some things
get lost..and suddenly they appear again...

Referring to HiStory (I don`t have the CD)..but I read something interesting about a
special artwork in the booklet.
It's only german, but please have a look at page 3:

The left one is the original…
the right one is the one which was published (it was censored by sony)
There are hardly differences to see for me…
right corner on top: star of david and jerusalem…
left corner bottom: the word God
[url=http://www.mjackson.net/fanzin…..806_ug.pdf

http://www.mjackson.net/fanzin…..806_ug.pdf[/quote[/url]]

There is not much on that linkyou hav to follow another link can you like put the pictures on here?

He was talking to a JEW! OMG hos things get screwed up...just like we all know that all the headlines are gonna say he was competing with madonna now because she was jealous....take words in context of the WHOLE conversation(does anybody do that anymore)